How can you improve if you are at a high-level aerobically, but have no basic speed?

The chances are you are going to find out you are a marathoner someday. But before you try that, consider this old post. I doubt this is going to let you break 14 sec or anything but from 16 sec you need to try everything even to run the marathon.

"However, if you genuinely cannot hit the example (short) performances (for 800 + 1500) I outlined above (and you would really need to if you hope to ever get to 25:00/8k), then you need to learn how to run fast. This is a skill you need to develop especially if you are a heel-striker.

You need to learn how to land further forward on your foot.

Running uphill helps to learn this because it becomes increasingly more difficult to heel-strike the steeper the hill. To get an idea, find a steep ~30 degree uphill with a hard tarmac surface (rather than soil/sand/gravel) and run up swiftly for 30-50m without letting your heel hit the ground. Compared to distance running, accentuate your knee lift (without exaggerating). Drive off the rear foot more like a light bound than a normal jog uphill.

Some (even good) distance runners can have real difficulty learning how to do this, so do persist and dont give up because you cant get it. Note that this is skill-learning (and not fitness training), so just run for 5-8 secs each rep and allow 60-90s recovery. You must be mentally/physically fresh when doing this, so dont add it on to the end of your long run. Instead, do it BEFORE your aerobic run (but after 5-10 mins jog warm-up and some dynamic stretching).

Be cautious and do no damage to your lower-leg/Achilles (you wont know for up to 2 days afterwards, so be cautious till you see the physical cost of the session). Dont do too many reps, 6-10 x 30-50m is plenty for one session. Remember, its a skill, so doing it 1,000 times but badly, will not help. Its a skill and some people get it quickly (1-3 sessions) and some take longer.

When you think youve got the hang of it, start running 10 x 100m on the flat with a minimum of 90 secs walk-back recovery using this newly learned mode of running. Any stretch of flat road will do; so no need for a track or to buy spikes. Were not looking for a world-record here, but (aiming for 25:00/8k) you would expect to develop the skill to hit ~13 secs for 100m on demand (at least in the last 1-2 of the session). Whatever ever your 8k target, you want to be able to hit the kind of pace you would expect to run in a 300-400m race, at least for the last few reps of the session (although the earlier ones can be slower and build to quick efforts for the last 2 reps).

Its okay to start each session with 2-3 reps on your 50m hill (if nearby) just to re-calibrate the skill, and even to run the first few reps as 60m rather than 100s.

At all times, remember, this is a skill. It has little to do with the fitness level that allows you to run a decent 10k. So doing 25 x 100m in 17s is not going to help you gain the ability to run 8 x 100m in 13s. Just stick to 8-10 x 100m and aim to improve the skill and run them faster as the weeks progress.

Learn how to move, as I have outlined above. And I am very aware it would be much easier if you saw what I was advising rather than just reading these words I know most runners learn best by observing and copying, so posting some video clips might be an idea for the future.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4068677#ixzz3Q9XNHYbD

You need to go back to the basics and train like a sprinter. Start with suicides from a three point stance. Rest for a full minute between rests.

It could be a form issue, but most likely you just don't have the training to lift your feet up fast enough. In middle school I ran 400s with a 58s best but could only go 14.8 in a 100m and never ran under 30s in a single 200. The next year, I did more intensive mid-distance training and one thing we did was practice starts and 200m accelerations almost every day before our workout as well as drills like A1 marches and skips. My 400m only improved to 56hi that year but I dropped my 200 time to 25hi and my 100 to 12lo. I don't think I did any intense sprint training but just practicing mechanics and sprinting a lot help me put things together and actually utilize my ability. I don't think its possible that you can't run any faster so try mixing in drills and maybe some 30 to 60m flies after your runs.

Improved aerobic fitness allows you to run at a higher percentage of your top speed and that's where major improvements come. Improving your 100 meter time from, say, 13 to 11 seconds would be a massive improvement but it's not going.to get a minute off of your 5 km time.

Speed is genetic, my friend. If you can't go faster than 16 seconds for 100m, your level of it is far below average, and because of that you are never going to be able to post impressive times over anything less than very long distances (your 5K and 10K times are actually quite strong considering that level of speed). Enjoy your running, but don't place much importance on becoming "great," because it isn't in the cards for you.

increase your cadence and learn to use your arms. Imagine that you are carrying two hammers and pounding nails into the track.

P.S., I am not trying to be a dick. I'm in the same boat with a lack of speed preventing me from being competitive, but my 100m time is around 13 seconds. Emphasizing sprinting speed in your training will not make you a better distance runner, will only make you a marginally better sprinter at the expense of event-specific training.

Do what others have said (anyone can incorporate stuff like 8-12" hill sprints on long recovery without hindering training), but don't worry much about it. The Brownlee brothers ran in the mid 14's for 100m. I have a list of 100 yard/meter PBs of old distance athletes somewhere and many are not as fast as you would think.

Start dating a Victoria's Secret model who won't put out til you run a sub 50 400m... by sheer force of will you'll find the speed

He's never going to run 13 seconds for 100, and he doesn't need to. You don't understand distance runners basic speed. As for running up a 30 degree hill, no, you have no idea how steep that is. It is impossible to even walk up a 30 degree slope.

And most importantly, he should be doing sprints after a few miles of running, not before. Your concept of being physically fresh is just wrong, a lot of warm up is required to sprint efficiently, especially for a distance runner.

notunfitjustplainslow wrote:

I am really mediocre (22 years old, 16:55 5k, 27:50 8k on roads). I am ready and willing to put in the work, but don't think I can improve with NO SPEED.

You ain't got "no" speed, you got some speed, just not top speed but that's fine.

The challenge is not to make you into a sprinter, but to retain the speed that you have. When I changed from running the 440 to road races and marathons, I lost a LOT of top speed, but gained over middle distances, and greatly with distances.

I would avoid trying to do all out sprints, think they would not help you and all, and would likely make you worse. Instead of that, focus instead on (1) volume at speed, and (2) longer repetitions at speed, as a part of your regular training.

Return to Index2 wrote:

P.S., I am not trying to be a dick. I'm in the same boat with a lack of speed preventing me from being competitive, but my 100m time is around 13 seconds. Emphasizing sprinting speed in your training will not make you a better distance runner, will only make you a marginally better sprinter at the expense of event-specific training.

Seconded. In high school I ran a 220 in 28.3 and a 440 in 57.8. I never broke 6:00 for the mile. In college I "progressed" to 59.8 for a 440 but graduated with a six mile best of 32:31. Eventually I ended up with 5/10k bests of 15:33/32:20 but in those days my best 440 was 66 something. Obviously this would have been a problem if I was a 400/800 guy but I wasn't.

I'd also second Hardloper's suggestion about hills but I'd expand it to doing longer hill reps as well.

with your lack of speed decay from 5k to 8k, you should be able to do progressively better with longer distances. I used to run with a guy who didn't break 16 for 5k, or not by much, but ran 1:12 HM and amazingly, 2:25 for marathon. He did not train at 5k pace but did a lot of work at HM and marathon pace. (Later he did break 1:10 in the half). But if you think you can't improve your speed, you are wrong. You have the explosive power, with the jumping ability. You just need the form practice, achieved through hill running, drills and sprints, so do those sprints consistently for a long period, with short steep hills every week and strides 3x/week. Your speed will improve. But for distances, you're going to need the tempos and long intervals.

I don't doubt I could have improved my speed but that wasn't my focus. I figured that sessions spent working extensively on improving speed were going to take time away from improving stamina and endurance and would not produce as much of a return.

Do you have a coach? Otherwise you may never be fast but there are probably some adjustments that will improve your basic speed. 2 generally neglected areas are hips and arms.

Like all of us...you need to accept what you are. Until you do, it's difficult to make any progress because specific training is primarily based on where you are at now...not what you dream to be.

Your upside is limited by your speed...as is everyone's. But you still can improve a lot.

When I was at my best....I had your base speed..exactly. I ran 16:05 for 5K, 26:05 for 5mi, 33:06 for 10K, 2:34:30 for the marathon. Even though these times are not "great" by your standards...I'll bet you would find great satisfaction by running comparable times.

Lots of training to improve your top end speed will yield little to no results...as has been well described here. Train you strengths mostly.

You have plenty of talent...maybe not national or world class. But you have nothing to be ashamed of.

Good luck...

HRE wrote:

Return to Index2 wrote:

P.S., I am not trying to be a dick. I'm in the same boat with a lack of speed preventing me from being competitive, but my 100m time is around 13 seconds. Emphasizing sprinting speed in your training will not make you a better distance runner, will only make you a marginally better sprinter at the expense of event-specific training.

Seconded. In high school I ran a 220 in 28.3 and a 440 in 57.8. I never broke 6:00 for the mile. In college I "progressed" to 59.8 for a 440 but graduated with a six mile best of 32:31. Eventually I ended up with 5/10k bests of 15:33/32:20 but in those days my best 440 was 66 something. Obviously this would have been a problem if I was a 400/800 guy but I wasn't.

I'd also second Hardloper's suggestion about hills but I'd expand it to doing longer hill reps as well.

Third.

Running hills becomes a strength exercise, which, IMO is what is missing.

Your muscles need to develop more power to push air out of the way and defeat gravity. You can do that running hills or in the gym. No, you won't bulk up in the gym. At minimum, I bet you will find you have better fatigue resistance after a few months in the gym. Be sure to decrease your running volume so there's ample time for recovery.

The fast time in exchange for a date with a model works too. Basically, you have to go faster aerobically over short distances first and then apply that speed to longer distances.

J.R. wrote:

notunfitjustplainslow wrote:

I am really mediocre (22 years old, 16:55 5k, 27:50 8k on roads). I am ready and willing to put in the work, but don't think I can improve with NO SPEED.

You ain't got "no" speed, you got some speed, just not top speed but that's fine.

The challenge is not to make you into a sprinter, but to retain the speed that you have. When I changed from running the 440 to road races and marathons, I lost a LOT of top speed, but gained over middle distances, and greatly with distances.

I would avoid trying to do all out sprints, think they would not help you and all, and would likely make you worse. Instead of that, focus instead on (1) volume at speed, and (2) longer repetitions at speed, as a part of your regular training.

The best advice I can give you is don't listen to this

The lack of reading comprehension of some people is hard to believe.

I stated he would NEVER break 14 for 100m.

The 13 second time was for the guy in the linked thread that wanted to run 25:00 for 8k.

30 degrees is steep but it is just a crutch to help you learn to get your toes down not a hill to build strength by climbing.

A lot of warmup sounds just like the recommended "after 5-10 mins jog warm-up and some dynamic stretching". The point of the fresh statements was to NOT slog through a 2 hour long run before the sprints.

It is not my concept of distance runner's basic speed. Did you follow the link?

The person who wrote it was so respected on here that he shared a locked thread, may he rest in peace.