VDOT/Training paces

I don't think you should be sore from a normal 3x1mile workout, not enough that you couldn't run again 1 day later anyway.

I will be the first to ask, why are you running so little? Do the 40-50 mpw in the plan and you probably won't fall apart in your intervals or have muscle ache after relatively short interval sessions as often.

Makes no sense. You must be about to get seriously injured.

But I train for longer races...as a mid-packer - 3:30 marathon.

You've been running for 16 months, but any intense running? As Daniels says, increasing the stress in any area is going to be challenging in a good way, but if you have gone from 16 months of just running to suddenly doing Rs and Is, it's not unreasonable that you might find it really difficult. How many times have you tried these workouts? Maybe give it a few tries?

Also, I understand the the logic of cutting the mileage in half, but just because it's logical, doesn't mean it is effective. That training program was worked out by a coach for a runner whose body is accustomed to 50 miles per week. If you are only comfortable doing half that mileage, maybe that program isn't for you. In some ways, it kinda makes sense that some workouts were difficult/impossible; if it makes sense to you that 50 miles/week is beyond your current ability, it's not a stretch to accept that the paces might be too.

FYI, I train at about 50-60 miles per week during marathon prep. Though I did not employ Daniels VDOT tables to establish my paces, they are incredibly accurate for me. I don't follow Daniels plan, but those paces in my own training feel how Daniels says they are supposed to feel.

Good luck with it!

Thanks Everyone.

Also 46 male...

That makes a lot of sense. Dividing by 2 doesn't mean that i am capable of doing it. For the record, i am not capable of doing 50 mpw. Not even if it's all E. My body just isn't ready it. For reference, i was running 15 mpw until summer of 2014. 5k times: a 24:37 in march 2014. 25:55 in Nov 2013. I'm a beginner and walking a tightrope.

I love intervals, but since i can't finish the workouts as designed, the workouts don't make sense for my level of fitness. I should be able to do 5K pace 800s, but maybe a little slower on the first ones to be sure that things are warmed up properly before trying to hammer out runs at my vvo2max.

It is probably that my body is simply not used to that intensity over distance. I've been doing intervals since i started. I was thinking they were vo2max difficulty, but i think, looking back, they were really cruise intervals. T training. and so i've done a lot of tempo training and very little stress at, say, my 1 mile pace. Adding in a bunch of 1 mile pace stuff...it's too much even though it's the only variable that is changing.

Make sense?

Makes sense to me...

It sucks, but the fact is it just takes time. At 46, we're thinking we ain't got time. But for someone like me who didn't start distance running until my early 30s, I'm STILL improving...significantly. It's not that I am defying middle age; it's just that I sucked so bad when I started. Those Daniels programs are for experienced runners who are near their potential and need to bump up incrementally to keep seeing gains. When you are first getting started, ANYTHING you do will help, even if you are not hitting times on a chart. I made lots of mistakes early on, including trying to train at levels that made no sense for my experience ability...it doesn't help and, in fact, it holds you back.

Just a suggestion but instead of setting VDOT training paces based on a race result, why not spend a few weeks trying to find the VDOT TRAINING pace levels that you can actually achieve without killing yourself. Like find the "I" workout pace that you can actually finish. It may take a bit of trial and error. When you find it, use that as your VDOT level. Start there. Do it for a few weeks. When it ceases to be a challenge, bump up. It's not exactly "by the book" but it might be useful.

Mark Zartler wrote:

I'm making progress without Interval paces, so who cares? I guess the big thing for me would be solving the chronic hamstring stress that hits me when i hold a subjectively fast pace for more than 400m.

Any thoughts?

Get to the gym and do some leg work. In particular, do some eccentric hamstring exercises like romanian deadlift or variations. Stay away from the hamstring curl machine, as there is evidence that hamstring curls can lead to hamstring pulls.

well past 46 wrote:

Get to the gym and do some leg work. In particular, do some eccentric hamstring exercises like romanian deadlift or variations. Stay away from the hamstring curl machine, as there is evidence that hamstring curls can lead to hamstring pulls.

I'm very active with weights. it makes me less of a pure runner, but i do a lot of upper body. I'm a runner to people in the gym and a weight lifter to runners.

Romanian deadlifts are part of my regular workout. I absolutely love them. it's like hamstring therapy. I mix in squats, but less frequently. I can't do the squats more than once every few weeks. My legs bulk very fast and i don't want weight lifter thighs.

I steer clear of all isolation exercises, upper and lower body. if it doesn't require more than one joint, it's probably too much stress in one direction. That's my theory anyway.

Thank you. That is terrific advice and wisdom. I hear your point clearly. At my level of fitness (and ability to recover), it's not necessary to get so detailed about everything. I can draw on recent gains that basically prove your point... E Running + Repetition running a minute+ PR. before that, E Running and Cruise Intervals pushed it forward several minutes...I'm less fit, and therefore need less training to produce results.

I'm going to follow your advice. It makes sense. i already pretty much know what i can do at 6x800 or 5 x 1000. I will start there and I'll stay around that pace until i actually feel that i can go a bit harder, progress into it. It may come fast or not, either way, it'll be a good workout for me and preserve my health... Hard, but not "my limbs are gonna fall off" brutal.

Thank you so much!

justsomeoldcoach wrote:

Makes no sense. You must be about to get seriously injured.

I second this opinion. OP has no base, no experience is 46 yrs old, I presume does no core or maintenance and is trying to hit the track hard. Amazing! Surefire recipe for all kinds of injuries. Drop all the complicated crap and build your mileage over the winter with steady and easy runs. Gain some strength by doing hills every alternate week. Nobody has patience these days...

Interesting. I have trouble doing Daniels T pace but no issues with R/I pace work. Probably reflects my 400/800 background.

Are you trying to do 3 quality days a week?

If so, try cutting back to 2 and alternate types of intervals each week.

Try reducing your interval length to 400m. Make sure you rest period between intervals is adequate time for recovery.

Kevin52 wrote:

Are you trying to do 3 quality days a week?

Three if I count the long run, usually 7.5-8.5 miles.

this usually amounts to 1 workout per week on the track. the tempo intervals/runs are usually on a road road.

Before following a plan, i tended to randomize the repetition length. Whatever felt interesting today.

It hadn't been much of a stress until i started trying the hard Interval paces. If i were able to run them, at pace, i would likely need to drop the tempo run.

I am trying to be careful. I have wised up a lot since last summer. I was running 3-4 times a week but most of it was on the track. very few E runs. I hit the reset button when i realized it was impossible to increase miles. It was helpful, so...I am listening to everyone who recommends increasing miles, dropping fast work and basing. my training schedule ends mid march, and i'll back off the quality sessions and ramp, to a consistent 35, perhaps 40.

This is a great thread. I think a lot of "late to the game" runner's are in the same boat. The mind wants to be ready for Daniel's, but the body hasn't been beat up enough to be prepared for the workouts.

So far no real trolls too!