200\400 ratios for distance runners vs sprinters? ventolin, sprintgeezer, anyone?

I've been reading some of the "How They Train" books by Fred Wilt and surprisingly most of them have PBs listed all the way down to 100 yards. Many of them are 24.x and 50.x. I was thinking of compiling a list of sprint PB's of distance runners. Kip Keino's were supposedly 49.0 and 24.0!

Merry Christmas HardLoper!

TAA wrote:

Merry Christmas HardLoper!

Thanks, you too! Though today was my golden birthday you know.

Eamonnn Coughlin claims to have been 25 and 50!

Michael Johnson: 19.32 and 43.18, a difference of 4.54.

For sprinters, the standard relationship is 2 time 200 meter time plus 4 seconds.

But distance runners:

(a) Don't have the pure 100/200 speed to be sprinters;

(b) Do lots of fast intervals with short rest to extend the speed they have for longer distances, but this sacrifices their short speed.

(c) Distance runners' 400 speed becomes faster relative to 100/200 due to additional aerobic support in the second half of the 400.

About the only distance runner to violate these relationships with modern training was Sebastian Coe, who did sprint training every week all year, so Coe, with 3 second/lap speed endurance, was something like 21.5/46.87.

BTW, Kip Keino was VERY fast. In "Train Hard Win Easy," (p. 98), he said:

"I had good speed. I could run 21 second 200s. By running lots of intervals I kept that speed fresh. A lot of runner lose their natural speed through too much mileage."

I don't know where you got the idea that Keino was only capable of 24, but whomever said that is full of shit. I think you will find that he was faster than 49 as well.

coach d wrote:

I don't know where you got the idea that Keino was only capable of 24, but whomever said that is full of shit. I think you will find that he was faster than 49 as well.

I had a hard time believing he was ever timed for 440, 220, or 100 yards (given as 11.0 in How They Train), just stating what was in the book. But isn't a 21 second 200m also hard to believe, at least if it was from a proper start?

rashos22 wrote:

What are the differences? Could a world class distance runner with 24 sec 200m speed run 50 for 400m?

This question is a bit like "How long is a piece of string?'

It really depends on the type of runner he is. Miruts Yifter was a guy who could turn on huge speed and was a 5 k 10 k.

Most sprinter's don't run distance and vice versa for distance runners doing sprints. Ultimately they never run when pealed or even race out of time trial. When sprinter's train for speed the best they can do in practice is 95%. That being understood and sprints being so short the times can look pretty awful. Now most distance runners don't training short intervals with complete recovery between intervals. When you consider the fact distance runners often run most of their intervals with some forms of fatigue it becomes clear as to why the sprints can seem slower then what they should be for their talent. Additionally muscle fiber type forces elite athletes into events that they can have success and limits there ability to be great at events far from their strength because they are not made of the same stuff literally.

Ryry wrote:

Most sprinter's don't run distance and vice versa for distance runners doing sprints. Ultimately they never run when pealed or even race out of time trial. When sprinter's train for speed the best they can do in practice is 95%. That being understood and sprints being so short the times can look pretty awful. Now most distance runners don't training short intervals with complete recovery between intervals. When you consider the fact distance runners often run most of their intervals with some forms of fatigue it becomes clear as to why the sprints can seem slower then what they should be for their talent. Additionally muscle fiber type forces elite athletes into events that they can have success and limits there ability to be great at events far from their strength because they are not made of the same stuff literally.

What a huge number of assumptions you have. Almost all of it rubbish.

And running fast and sprinting are not the same thing.

Not rubbish. Have you trained five Gatorade athletes of a year in distance? At the same time invited to Olympic Training Center as an Emerging Elite coach for sprinters? Doubt it. Now I ask you how many great sprinters go on road runs? Let alone run a competitive 3200 meter race? You do know the 800 and 1500/1600 is not distance? Success at the highest level in sprints and distance are fiber type dependent. Times don't match for a variety of reasons. Part of it is training has consequences. You train for distance you get better at running distance. Part is genetic as stated in previous post. Another factor is opportunity. How often do you see elites run real competitions opposite of their best events. Example given of Coe is different because he is the prototype middle distance runners not distance or sprinter if some of these mentioned distance runners were trained from a young age to be sprints their talent could have made them a average college athlete in those events. Assumptions? Maybe. Rubbish? Not likely.

I would call it rubbish because you have typed a huge block of text and not any of it is related to the subject of this thread.

200 * 2.2359 = 400 = West African Descent

200 * 2.1458 = 400 = European Descent

200 * 2.0901 = 400 = East African Descent

Yes his statement does because he is trying to explain how the ratio discussed is possible and how it doesn't matter speed for sprints because you only need to be fast enough in the critical zone of the race. Last lap of every championship race in distance had nearly the same time. Just below 51 seconds.

Ryry wrote:

Now I ask you how many great sprinters go on road runs? Let alone run a competitive 3200 meter race? You do know the 800 and 1500/1600 is not distance? Success at the highest level in sprints and distance are fiber type dependent. Times don't match for a variety of reasons. Part of it is training has consequences. You train for distance you get better at running distance. Part is genetic as stated.

Edwin Moses, Brandon McBride

hellishot wrote:

Yes his statement does because he is trying to explain how the ratio discussed is possible and how it doesn't matter speed for sprints because you only need to be fast enough in the critical zone of the race. Last lap of every championship race in distance had nearly the same time. Just below 51 seconds.

The last lap in every championship race in distance was not below 51 seconds. Off the top of my head, I can think of several Bekele races where the last lap was 52-55.

Times for distance races? Plus Edwin Moses event is a cross over between a sprint and mid distance. Hence a lot of athletes doing both 400h and 600/800. The other question you need to ask with Edwin training how fast would his times might have been if he didn't spend time with high volume of aerobic training? Like Vania Stambolova or Tasymn Manou or Bershawn Jackson or Brandon Johnson.

http://www.usatf.org/Athlete-Bios/Brandon-Johnson.aspx

Then you just solidify hellishot and ryry point even more. Speed needs to be good enough. On the flip side if you have no wheels then you can't play in the last lap of a distance race. What did Galen and Mo run for their last lap in the 2012 Olympic Games?

52.9 just looked it up. So essentially you need to be able to run under 53

The only one answering the question is Coach JW.

I see distance types running at 2.10 or under (400/200 time as a ratio).

Middle distance at about 2.15 to as much as 2.20. (some down coser to 2.10)

Sprinters at 2.20-2.30( closer to 2.25 and up).

It isn't really about EA types, we just see certain types predominate and ignore existing types that don't fit our preconcieved notions.

Ryry wrote:

Times for distance races? Plus Edwin Moses event is a cross over between a sprint and mid distance. Hence a lot of athletes doing both 400h and 600/800. The other question you need to ask with Edwin training how fast would his times might have been if he didn't spend time with high volume of aerobic training? Like Vania Stambolova or Tasymn Manou or Bershawn Jackson or Brandon Johnson.

http://www.usatf.org/Athlete-Bios/Brandon-Johnson.aspx

Thank you for your input. What you say makes sense. I think everyone should spend a lot of time learning to use raw sprint power, especially mid-d guys. The faster 'sprinter' you become, the more you can use your superior endurance to carry your 200 speed toward the 400 mark.

Do you think Edwin Moses' unusually large base helped his longevity and ability to run as fast as he did so many times?