Running stride analysis from HS coach is pissing me off...

The next step to getting faster is the same as the previous steps: train harder and your legs become stronger.

Your coach is right.

canuckboy wrote:

but I know that running is a subconcious process where things like breathing, coordination are all determined by our brains.

I completely disagree. I spend a lot of my runs consciously trying to improve things other than fitness.

canuckboy wrote:The guys a good person but I just think everyone has become so OCD when it comes to foot strike.

Normally I'm OCD about unwanted thoughts. Are you ADHD when you eat candy?

Form guy wrote:

Your coach is right.

Not necessarily. Everyone is different and some find the right stride for them - i.e. a low knee lift works for some, and can create better "mudders" in XC. If your stride creates injury problems then altering it MIGHT be useful (if even possible) and can be done through enhanced strength and/or flexibility. For others, trying to alter things is the kiss of death and creates more problems than it solves. Too often it is a matter of a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing - "I read a book so I know what to do", when in fact they have no real grasp of the entire situation as things are often more complicated than they look. It's like someone sees a "pretty" stride and makes the assumption that it is necessarily efficient when it in fact may not be at all, or may only be for that particular runner.

If your coach isn't a biomechanics authority (but he slept at a holiday Inn), then he/she should leave well enough alone. I have seen too many athletes try to change things in HS, only to be told the complete opposite in College. Sadly it is often the case that neither coach really knows what they are doing in this regard.

You obviously don't understand biomechanics.

With all due respect, then this is wrong. Im not sure which things you speak of whether it be your breathing or your stride, but our brain knows better than you. Just because Runners World publishes an article doesn't mean you should listen.

Form guy wrote:

Your coach is right.

Well ..... yes, but his approach is wrong.

The way to optimize (not necessarily increase) stride length is (A) firstly via verticality exercises that improve push off from the foot/ankel in coordination with the rest of the body, and then (B) let the effects of that repetition work its magic as you run with your natural gait.

In other words, do the vertical exercises in the weight room or gym as you would any other conditioning drills, then don't even think about it while you run as you normally do The improvement in your stride will occur naturally over time.

Form guy wrote:

Your coach is right.

You're supposed to drive with your ankle? I've run some decent times myself, and I don't even know how I would go about driving with my ankle. Can you explain what this means?

Running on Empathy wrote:

Form guy wrote:

Your coach is right.

Well ..... yes, but his approach is wrong.

The way to optimize (not necessarily increase) stride length is (A) firstly via verticality exercises that improve push off from the foot/ankel in coordination with the rest of the body, and then (B) let the effects of that repetition work its magic as you run with your natural gait.

In other words, do the vertical exercises in the weight room or gym as you would any other conditioning drills, then don't even think about it while you run as you normally do The improvement in your stride will occur naturally over time.

This makes perfect sense. Well thought out answer. Thank you.

Just doing strength and flexibility exercises may change your for but how you run is largely determined by how you ran in the past. Strengthening doesn't retrain motor programming.

canuckboy wrote:

Running on Empathy wrote:

Well ..... yes, but his approach is wrong.

The way to optimize (not necessarily increase) stride length is (A) firstly via verticality exercises that improve push off from the foot/ankel in coordination with the rest of the body, and then (B) let the effects of that repetition work its magic as you run with your natural gait.

In other words, do the vertical exercises in the weight room or gym as you would any other conditioning drills, then don't even think about it while you run as you normally do The improvement in your stride will occur naturally over time.

This makes perfect sense. Well thought out answer. Thank you.

In 9th grade I ran with a cadence of about 75. My coach told me I needed to increase my cadence, move vertically less and stop heel striking.

For the next two years I would regularly count my stride rate on runs and tried to keep it first above 80 then 85 and finally 90. I also was so paranoid about heel striking that I would even think about it while I was walking to school and in between classes.

Obviously there are lots of confounding variables but I went from a 2:25, 5:30 & 19:00 runner to a1:58, 4:27, 16:25 runner and had a delightful two year stretch where the only injury I had was a sprained ankle that kept me from training for only one week.

some other guy wrote:

In 9th grade I ran with a cadence of about 75. My coach told me I needed to increase my cadence, move vertically less and stop heel striking.

For the next two years I would regularly count my stride rate on runs and tried to keep it first above 80 then 85 and finally 90. I also was so paranoid about heel striking that I would even think about it while I was walking to school and in between classes.

Obviously there are lots of confounding variables but I went from a 2:25, 5:30 & 19:00 runner to a1:58, 4:27, 16:25 runner and had a delightful two year stretch where the only injury I had was a sprained ankle that kept me from training for only one week.

None of that has anything to do with your running performance. You got better because you were training. Also, there is nothing wrong with heel striking.

BS.

are you now? wrote:

canuckboy wrote:

but I know that running is a subconcious process where things like breathing, coordination are all determined by our brains.

I completely disagree. I spend a lot of my runs consciously trying to improve things other than fitness.

canuckboy wrote:The guys a good person but I just think everyone has become so OCD when it comes to foot strike.

Normally I'm OCD about unwanted thoughts. Are you ADHD when you eat candy?

Same here. It ended up ruining my enjoynment of my runs so I made an effort to stop it. But running is a skill - dependent on muscle memory, but to get there you need to be conscious of it. To juggle you don't just randomly toss balls in the air and hope eventually it works itself out. You think about it, get the patterns correct (yes, I can juggle), THEN commit to muscle memory. FWIW I'm a midfoot striker too, and it came from a shiftworker dad with a bad temper. I tiptoed around the house, eventually I didn't have to think about it. I just did it. When I began running in my late 20s, my feet said 'I remember this' and I run midfoot... but even then, only because I made a conscious effort to move from forefoot.

Trust your coach.

As you lift weights, run more, and run faster, running form improves naturally for many people. For those whose form doesn't improve, they get injured so often they quit the sport. Thus, those who say running form improves naturally are looking at a self selected sample of themselves and others who became good without any conscious effort to improve form. They (the people on this forum) are actually the minority of people who run. Many beginning, high school, and recreational runners could benefit greatly from improving their running form. If you doubt this, watch runners finishing from 20 minutes on back at your local 5k. You will see lots of form flaws that increase the risk of injury and limit the runners' potential to get faster.

I think your coach's explanation is confusing. You don't actually push from the ankle. Your ankle never touches the ground. To me, running from the ankle implies that the foot stays dorsiflexed throughout the entire foot strike. It does not. The foot is dorsiflexed at landing and plantar flexed at push off.

You actually push off from the forefoot, but it's too simplistic to just say "push off with the forefoot." "Push off" is a coordinated effort of driving the arms, extending the leg behind you, pushing off with the forefoot, keeping your pelvis tucked in so you get slightly more knee lift naturally with the forward leg, and slightly more forward lean. Oh, and keep your torso aligned and not bent forward. All of this together leads to a better push off.

You might be good at parts of the above and weak at others. We don't know. We haven't seen you run.

There's a lot more to good form. The above comments only address push off.

Lifting will help. Running drills like skips will help. Looking at slow motion videos of your own running form will help. Watching slow motion videos of top Kenyan runners will illustrate all the form components I outlined above.

Again, I haven't seen you run, but it's easier to coach some runners by showing them how to adjust their arm swing. For example, if you concentrate on extending your opposite elbow farther back, your trailing leg will also extend slightly farther back, giving you more of the push you are looking for. It's worth a try, but changing armswing is difficult for many runners. There are drills specifically for armswing, but that wasn't your question and this post is already too long. Good luck.

Let me give you an easy example to think about.

A very good local HS runner that has above average form BUT he turns his left wrist 90 degrees on the backswing. This causes his entire hand to flop with every arm swing. It looks awful and wastes a small amount of energy.

This is something that would be easy to fix. Do you have him fix it? I would. However, his coach doesn't spend a minute on form. I believe he assumes, like most runners, that heavy training will guide him to the most efficient form. This kid is 60+ mpw and isn't going to change without thinking about it.

Btw, a specific answer to your question...unless your form is god-awful bad (in which case you should be listening to your coach) you won't be able to see and quantify changes without a high-speed video session.

I understand what my coach wants me to do. He wants me to push off with the forefoot/push thru with the ankle, same idea. But I know this is wrong. We need to achieve a whole when we run. We need to run by feel not through some exaggerated focus or concentration exercise. This is simply a waste of our physical and mental energy. Mastering any skill is about relaxing and letting our natural rhythm take over. Playing a musical instrument, playing skilled sports, public speaking, acting all are examples. And even highly physical endeavours like running require that same relaxed demeanour.

I actually think theres not a lot to good form. I see it as the opposite Mr. fisky. Mo Farah and Galen Rupp make running look very easy, effortless, because for them, it is. They relax and run by feel. Not because some sort of conscious exercises have implanted each and every skill in their brains and has culminated to the perfect stride. That's just some "practice makes perfect" BS that has long been disproven.

I see a lot of runners, often females who are very deliberate in their style that just waste energy. You see things like wrist flicks like one already mentioned, pointy sprinter hands, and over striding/heel striking. The way to fix this junk is not to work on some concentration exercises, its to get them to understand that they need to run naturally on their forefoot(of course exercises can help them understand better but it shouldn't be overcomplicated) and run by feel. In this manner they wont overthink the stride, they will feel the natural feedback that their body gives them and you will see a proper stride take over. Exercises/weights might strengthen muscles and improve economy, but if you don't have the fitness you don't have anything.

Last thing I will add is that a lot of poor posture you see at the end of races is caused by mental suffering and not physical discomfort. Its the anxieties and the doubts that mess up our breathing and cause us to be begin to change ur running form, compensating for our difficulty getting in oxygen. Fatigue and pain are emotions. And therefore in my mind, the solution to poor form in the end of races is not concentrating on form, but toughening ones mind to allow them to stop fighting themselves and focus on the race. Not their form.

Just my two cents.

Um... judging from that post, you should probably listen to your coach.