Marathon failure - 20miles to finish

My marathon PR is a little better but you are 2-3 minutes faster in the half. My advice is you already know the answer. Instead of doing 4 x 20 do 2 x 20 and 2 x 22. I also would do something like 10 easy and then 10 MP as one lone run. You don't mention overall mileage but that is probably more or just as important.

Hi Tycobb

Thank you for replying. I have read about the 10 easy and 10 MP that you have mentioned above and will introduce this when I start my next block of 15 weeks training for April Marathon on the 5th of Jan.

My weekly mileage was listed as being between 70 and 80 on my last programme, but couldn't get double runs in so I was at about 60miles.

This time I will hit the 70/80MPW

I have a 2:37:55 marathon PR ( recently done this past october)and 75 minute half PR. Your 72 min half converts well below 2:37. I stuck to 56-60 miles per week over 16 weeks- max long run of 20 done 4 times over 16 weeks with the last 3 weeks prior. All long runs of 16-20 done at 90-95% MP. 3 weeks prior to the 2:37:55 I did 20 at 6:08 pace. I also did an 8 mile tempo once per week and 3 by 2 mile intervals with 1/2 mile recovery jog once per week.

I am a true believer of the fast long run. It builds confidence - when I finished that last 20 miler with a 5:45 mile, I was much more confident I would go sub 2:40.

Marathon Convert wrote:

I'm new to the marathon since 2013. my HM time is 72min and my marathon PB is 2:41. I tend to fly up to 20 21M (2 hours at 20m ) but then the trouble starts ( and no I'm not hitting the wall have before so I know the difference )

the thing is my longest run is 20M and tend to do about 4 of them during a 15 week program. I'm putting my major problems over the last 6M's down to the following.

1 - long run isn't long enough need to go up to 23 or 23M runs

2 - all my long runs are ran at a slow easy pace maybe I should do some tempo/MP during the long runs.

Any advice would be welcomed as I feel I'm in 2:37 shape

Thanks in advance - Marathon Convert

I have only run one marathon where I didn't break down at around mile 21-22 and that was when I was pacing somone slower. I could not run enough milege to do better because I broke down once I reached a certain amount. I came to the realization that the distance was too much for the time goals I had based on other distances I raced.

When you say 90-95% of MP, do you mean you're running 5 to 10% faster than marathon pace?

I've read this before as a training idea, but even Pftizinger talks about 110-120% MP long runs (slower than MP but not a slow slog). Just trying to understand. Seems that would be very tough!

No slower - 90-95 % of MP effort-so I would hold back a little with each long run, but not much. Eventually, many of my long runs were at a faster pace than my previous marathon PR, but were never as fast as the 6:01 per mile I eventually ran.

Actual paces varied over the summer based on temperature and humidity. On hot and humid mornings 90-95% MP effort was as slow as 6:30ish pace.

Bottom line is that doing long runs closer to marathon effort makes more sense to me than long slow runs nowhere near your pace goal.

If the OP, with a half PR of 72, does at least some of his long runs at this effort, he will likely get under 2:35

Fast long runs wrote:

I have a 2:37:55 marathon PR ( recently done this past october)and 75 minute half PR. Your 72 min half converts well below 2:37. I stuck to 56-60 miles per week over 16 weeks- max long run of 20 done 4 times over 16 weeks with the last 3 weeks prior. All long runs of 16-20 done at 90-95% MP. 3 weeks prior to the 2:37:55 I did 20 at 6:08 pace. I also did an 8 mile tempo once per week and 3 by 2 mile intervals with 1/2 mile recovery jog once per week.

I am a true believer of the fast long run. It builds confidence - when I finished that last 20 miler with a 5:45 mile, I was much more confident I would go sub 2:40.

I am slower than you but agree with this. Make your long run one of your 3 workouts of the week. Run it canova style .

Why not try running a few runs just on time and not mileage. For instance, try running a two hour long run on perhaps a Sunday. Wednesday, run ninety minutes adding five minutes each week until you come to two hours.

The long run you do on Sunday, similar, add ten minutes until you arrive at three hours. Doing it right you may get in two three hour runs. Time on your feet is precious. Also, you will help your body to burn fat as fuel after you've used up your glycogen.

Thanks to all posters on their insight to my problem.

I do tend to run my long runs 16 - 20miles easy ( 6.20 to 7.30 per mile ) . From what I am reading I need to do the following:

1 - increase long runs from 20 max to 23/24 max

2 - increase long run pace ( close to MP )

SAMPLE TRAINING WEEK - FROM MY 2;40:53 MARATHON:

Mon - 6miles easy

Tue - 6 mile tempo ( 5.25 to 5.35 per mile pace ) 4 mile warm up/cool down

Wed - 10 mile easy

Thursday - 6 x 1k repeats 2min break ( 2.57 to 3:05 ) 4 mile warm up/CD

Friday - 6mile easy

Saturday - 8mile easy

Sunday - 20 mile easy

after reading the above I was really asking for trouble from 20 miles on. Mileage not high enough at all...............for someone with a 71.57 half I really didn't train right at all for the marathon!!!!!!

Ran 9:20:17 for a 3km time trial during the week. not sure what this tells me about marathon training. at least I haven't lost any speed.

Don't jump into 23/24 miles - paced harder than before, a la canova - and assume the next race will be smoother. It might be too much to assimilate in a single cycle. Plus, your weekly mileage doesn't really support LRs that long and you might start to struggle with the quality days just because your Sunday became a heavy training load.

I am a strong believer that one should try to improve seeking the easiest way to do so. And that, for you, is more miles per week. Time to double up.

Also, you mentioned a 6 mile tempo. Can you elaborate on how hard are you running those and in which way (single run or intervals)?

I would change the 6 x 1k up. I would slow them down to 3:15 range shorten the rest to a 60sec jog and then try to extend the volume from 6 reps up to 12 - 15 of them.

my mileage is 2 low alright and I will look to correct that.

my 6 mile tempo is a single run pace is 5.25 to 5.35 per mile

could anyone else who has ran 2:36 or close to 2:30 give some feed back

Below is my plan at week 11 of a 15 week training plan for a Marathon in April 2015.

The weeks before have less mileage on the sunday and the Wednesday. The below is the highest amount of mileage in the plan and lasts for 2 weeks. Week 10 & 11

Will this help me get past failing at mile 20 ( legs heavy & tired but breathing and body are good at this point).

any extra comments would be really welcomed

Mar 16th Morning Evening

Mon 4 miles 6 miles

Tue 4 miles 6 miles Tempo

Wed 13 miles

Thu 4 miles 6 x 1000m

Fri 4 miles

Sat 8 miles

Sun 22 miles

I'm new to the distance and recently ran right around 2:30 in my first and only attempt thus far. While I can't say I'm an expert, looking at your training detail it sounds like your tempos are run too fast. Some will probably disagree, but 5:25 - 5:35 seems way too fast based on your PR's and goals. Are you running those tempos with a group? I know personally I would have a hard time running a 6 mile tempo at 5:25 pace unless I was pulled along by a group and feeling really good/fresh.

For my marathon I had a 4 month buildup that included 2 months of 10k/half training and 2 months of marathon specific training. In both phases I did tempo work at 5:35-5:50 pace depending on weather, time of day, and how I felt. In the 10k/half phase that meant working up to 5-6 miles at that pace during a 10-11 mile run. In the marathon phase that meant working up to 8-10 miles at that pace during a 2 hour long run. Some may not call that tempo, but for me it was around marathon pace and I think marathon pace is around tempo if it is 5+ miles.

I personally think most people "tempo" too fast and have never been able to run the suggested pace based on my PRs that you'll find in Jack Daniels' charts. That includes now and when I was running faster times in college years ago. Maybe I'm just odd.

So I'd suggest slowing down the tempos to MP and making them longer and part of your long run as you move through the training phases. You should probably honestly be running your mile and longer repeats on the faster end of 5:25-35.

Lastly I'd suggest making sure your recovery days are easy. It's something I didn't do in college and I think it hurt my ability to increase my mileage and stay healthy. As I've gotten older my body simply won't allow me to go anything but easy the day or 2 after a hard workout. Some days that means 7:45 pace, but some days I'll run no faster than 8:30-45.

Also, what are your 5K/10K PRs? That might help others give you more specific advice. Sorry if you already posted it.

My 5k PR is 15.44 and my 10k is 32.44

Is Renato Canova still on this forum

Well, I agree that some people probably run their tempos too fast, but what you suggested - running tempos at MP - seems to me odd. As a marathoner who follows a Pfitz plan, there are specific days for LT runs (which I consider tempo runs) and specific days for marathon pace runs - they are two different paces. I guess it comes down to what you define as tempos, but if you want to do LT runs, those are not MP runs - they are a good deal faster than MP runs. I personally think 5:25-5:35 is perfectly fine for a tempo, especially given his 72-min (5:30/mile) half PR. I guess this is just me but I do tempos at half-marathon pace or slightly slower.