Why do great HS runners run for mediocre schools

give an example or two. Not even sure I buy your premise, but if a so-called "mediocre" school has a great miler, it could be that a) the runner did not develop until late and wasn't highly recruited or b) the runner's grades or SAT were low in HS and the Ivy league or other big name schools chose not to recruit him based on that.

Also, the leg up that an Ivy League degree gives you relative to a non-Ivy league degree is overrated at the "bachelors" level. Most employers aren't impressed with 22-year olds looking for jobs, even if they did go to Harvard. Now with Masters degrees, yes having one from an Ivy League school does position you well in life.

whatsmyname wrote:

give an example or two. Not even sure I buy your premise, but if a so-called "mediocre" school has a great miler, it could be that a) the runner did not develop until late and wasn't highly recruited or b) the runner's grades or SAT were low in HS and the Ivy league or other big name schools chose not to recruit him based on that.

Also, the leg up that an Ivy League degree gives you relative to a non-Ivy league degree is overrated at the "bachelors" level. Most employers aren't impressed with 22-year olds looking for jobs, even if they did go to Harvard. Now with Masters degrees, yes having one from an Ivy League school does position you well in life.

This is from the Colorado Buffaloes' website:

He (Ben Saarel) was also recruited by Michigan, Wisconsin, Princeton, Stanford and Oklahoma.

And he chose to go to COLORADO... I mean you have Stanford and Princeton, and Princeton probably would have given Ben Saarel generous financial aid (like most ivy leagues do).

Maybe they turned the Ivies down for the same reason I did, because I generally can't stand Yankees/Northeast US.

Each case is different.

Recruited does not mean they all offered the same package.

Saarel is majoring in engineering physics. Colorado is strong in that major depending on which sub-field he is interested in.

Being from Utah, Colorado is closer more similar to home.

Grad Ceremonies wrote:

This is from the Colorado Buffaloes' website:

He (Ben Saarel) was also recruited by Michigan, Wisconsin, Princeton, Stanford and Oklahoma.

And he chose to go to COLORADO... I mean you have Stanford and Princeton, and Princeton probably would have given Ben Saarel generous financial aid (like most ivy leagues do).

1) The Ivy Leagues give good financial aid only if you need it (it's based on income and assets only). I have no idea how wealthy his family is, but since the Ivies do NOT give athletic (or academic) scholarships, if his family have some money, it could potentially cost a LOT less to go to Colorado with whatever athletic scholarship they gave him.

2) The academic pressure is great at Stanford and Princeton, and at Princeton, the students have a reputation for being pretty cutthroat competitive with each other. If you're not into that or if you feel like the academic expectations might be a bit more than you want to handle, you might very well decline to go there.

3) Maybe Colorado has the academic program he wants. Not all schools have the same things. Can't get certified to teach in 4 years at Stanford for example.

4) Mark Wetmore is definitely a draw as is running in the mountains of Colorado. Also, maybe he just wanted to be close to home. Not everyone wants to fly far from the nest right away.

Grad Ceremonies wrote:

But considering how much of a leg-up ivy league grads get, why do they choose mediocre fly-by-night schools?

I argue that it doesn't matter where you go to school. If you're smart enough to do well at an ivy then you'll probably have a 3.75+ at a state university and that'll get you wherever you want to go - med school, law school, etc.

Option A - go to ivies, run for a crappier program/coach, graduate with a 3.5 & some student debt, end up at ivy med school

Option B - go to public school, run for prestigious program/coach, graduate with a 3.75 & debt free, end up at ivy med school

You end up at the same place eventually, except with Option B you had the better running experience and a full scholarship.

Of course there are exceptions. Princeton and Columbia are good programs nationally. On the other hand Yale and Harvard are not. Also if you're poor you can basically attend Yale, Harvard, Princeton for free on need-based financial aid. But for the generic middle class runner who could attend a non-Princeton ivy vs. some awesome running school, I think you're better off at the running school.

Some of these guys are also chasing the dream. Wetmore gets Saarel, Torres, Ritz caliber athletes to take partial scholarships because they want to run for Wetmore and become an Olympian. If I had that option I'd take it. You'll find out by the time you're 30 if you're gonna make it. At that point you still have 35 years ahead of you to work at a real job.

I think you're really underestimating how competitive med school is especially for ivy league med schools. a 3.75 at a fairly prestigious school still makes it very difficult to get into med school even with solid MCAT scores. Look at med school admission statistics, they admit an absurdly low percentage of applicants (like 5%). A 3.75 at an average state school (Texas, Colorado, Florida) and you likely can't go ivy league for med school unless you kill the MCAT.

President Raisan wrote:

I think you're really underestimating how competitive med school is especially for ivy league med schools. a 3.75 at a fairly prestigious school still makes it very difficult to get into med school even with solid MCAT scores. Look at med school admission statistics, they admit an absurdly low percentage of applicants (like 5%). A 3.75 at an average state school (Texas, Colorado, Florida) and you likely can't go ivy league for med school unless you kill the MCAT.

While your point is generally correct: med school is very competitive and going to an ivy for undergrad does help, there is no such thing as an "ivy league med school". Other than Harvard, think UCSF, Pittsburgh, Duke, Mayo, Northwestern, etc. But all med schools are all tough to get into which is why there is a market for foreign med schools (and DO to some extent) despite the huge disadvantage they have for residency spots.

whatsmyname wrote:

Most employers aren't impressed with 22-year olds looking for jobs, even if they did go to Harvard. Now with Masters degrees, yes having one from an Ivy League school does position you well in life.

This isn't true, especially depending on the industry. Also, doing well at a good undergraduate school will help you get into a good Grad program, Law School, or Med School.

Grad Ceremonies wrote:

This is from the Colorado Buffaloes' website:

He (Ben Saarel) was also recruited by Michigan, Wisconsin, Princeton, Stanford and Oklahoma.

And he chose to go to COLORADO... I mean you have Stanford and Princeton, and Princeton probably would have given Ben Saarel generous financial aid (like most ivy leagues do).

The OP isn't talking about runners like Ben Saarel. Runners of his caliber are looking to be AA, win NCAA titles and possibly go pro. Runners like Saarel, Hasay, German Fernandez, Emily Lipari, Cas Loxsom, Shelby Houlihan, Elijah Greer, Mac Fleet, Laura Roesler, and Emily Sisson that have their pick of schools and a large part of their decision is the program and coach that will make them the best they can be.

Then you have schools that have great coaches and great academics and athletes that are smart enough to get in often choose those. Stanford, UVA, Michigan, Washington, Georgetown, Duke, UNC, etc.

By the time that happens, there may not be a ton of money/roster spots for a 4:13/9:10 guy at those schools.

Did you mean to spell Arkansas like that?

Hank Moody wrote:

Did you mean to spell Arkansas like that?

... the OP must have attended one of those mediocre schools. Such a shame.

I didn't read the other posts so maybe it's already been said, but specifically in the case of ben saarel (top flight H.S. runner) - he probably picked Colorado because they have a tradition of RUNNING success - and ben probably wants to go pro in running. He thought wetmore could develop him into a pro better than any ivy league coach.

Now somebody that isn't expecting to go pro in running would be stupid not to choose the academically elite college (IMO).

creeping fig nail on head

I suppose the thing is: Can you be a pro, AND can you be a good enough pro to make a living?

That being said, Saarel and runners of his caliber could have gone to a highly regarded academic school (Brown, Cornell, etc) which also has a great (but not phenomenal, like oregon or colorado) running program.

It's extremely difficult to get offers. I know a 4:10 1600 kid who wanted desperately to go to Colorado St. They wouldn't even offer him $5K a year in aid. He had average grades, in the low 3.x area. Not great, but not bad either. Tons of upside and he looks like a white version of an east african (stick lower legs, very lean and thin).

I feel like a lot of college coaches are scared to take talent like that on. They would rather take 4:20 kids and if they don't do well, then hey it still looks like they did pretty good with that talent. That may sound ridiculous, but I can't see a logical reason otherwise.

newroscience wrote:

It's extremely difficult to get offers. I know a 4:10 1600 kid who wanted desperately to go to Colorado St. They wouldn't even offer him $5K a year in aid. He had average grades, in the low 3.x area. Not great, but not bad either. Tons of upside and he looks like a white version of an east african (stick lower legs, very lean and thin).

I feel like a lot of college coaches are scared to take talent like that on. They would rather take 4:20 kids and if they don't do well, then hey it still looks like they did pretty good with that talent. That may sound ridiculous, but I can't see a logical reason otherwise.

I'm guessing that 4:10 kid told the coach "hey I do 100 miles per week, impressive right?" and the coach knew that the kid was close or at his full potential (AKA stagnation in college).

You'd be guessing wrong. He averaged just over 50mpw his senior year. Maybe part of the problem is that coaches don't want to insult kids when they can only offer 1/4 scholarship. In this kid's case, he'd have taken it.

Grad Ceremonies wrote:

I'm guessing that 4:10 kid told the coach "hey I do 100 miles per week, impressive right?" and the coach knew that the kid was close or at his full potential (AKA stagnation in college).

Whats your evidence that running. 100 mpw will make them stagnant in college?