Do I need mileage, or re-start from scratch with speedwork?

It probably has to do with form. Do you land on your heel, mid foot or forefoot? What is your stride frequency if you are running all out? And what is your stride frequency running a 5k?

You can run sub 3 in future, for sure. But first you have to work on your form, if that is the issue. Then you should slowly increase miles and at one point in time you will be in sub 3 shape.

Form...Christ on a bike.

Guys like us lost on the genetic lottery. I'm like you, but slightly better off. I can run 6:00 pace all day long, can run 5:40's without even thinking about it, but a single mile at 5:00 pace just leaves me doubled over gasping for breath. I cannot fathom how so many people my age can run 40-60s faster than me in a mile. That pace just feels dreadful on my body.

my advice wrote:

It probably has to do with form. Do you land on your heel, mid foot or forefoot? What is your stride frequency if you are running all out? And what is your stride frequency running a 5k?

You can run sub 3 in future, for sure. But first you have to work on your form, if that is the issue. Then you should slowly increase miles and at one point in time you will be in sub 3 shape.

I think it has to do w/ form too. I look horrible running, even when I consciously pay attention.

- Foot strike: I land on my heels but not too strongly. I am slightly more on the midfoot when running faster.

- Stride rate: around 175 when slow, 180 at marathon pace, 185 at 5k/10k pace and upwards of 190 when running sub 6. In VO2max repeats it can be 195-200. It's obvious from a progressive tempo-type of run that it increases with pace.

- "Look": I noticed one big thing in my stride. Even at the finish of a 5k, my back (trailing) heel does not come "up", it only goes back up to horizonal at most. Not sure I am describing it properly, but it has the effect of looking slow even at 5:30 when others around seem to have huge stride.

Stats from my 19:10 5k (Garmin 620):

Avg Run Cadence: 186 spm

Max Run Cadence: 217 spm

Avg Vertical Oscillation: 10.2 cm

Avg Ground Contact Time: 207 ms

Avg Stride Length: 1.42 m

Doesn't look like I overstride much? Think I have a short stride? Notably, I lose speed going downhill. That's where I get passed most and where I feel the "breaking".

A bit depressed now. wrote:

So do I go back to intensity and run fewer miles, or should I remove the "quality" and bump mileage to 60? I'm confused. I never really run "easy" distance as I keep my M/W/F short. Thanks for your help.

Yes. You've gone as far as you can on your current mileage which is a good thing. But to take it to the next level, you need to bump it up. 60 is a good goal. Just do a more easy miles with 1 tempo and one interval workout a week. Build up slowly. You will know it is working when you look at your watch and go "wow, that didn't feel that fast".

I would suggest following a well-rounded training plan, with a little periodization & good balance between several paces.

Something like a plan from Daniels Running Formula will have you regularly hitting easy pace, marathon pace, threshold pace, interval pace, repetition pace, and short strides.

The faster stuff is going to suck at first b/c you have neglected it (and it might be a weak area for you in general). The only way to get better at it is to practice it. Baby steps & small increments, especially at first, but over time you will get more comfortable. The economy gained will help you at all race distances.

Obviously if your goal is the marathon the shorter, faster paces will be limited, and not emphasized. But, don't completely neglect them. Everything helps build the overall masterpiece.

You don't need mileage regardless of what the majority of runners think. The times you're running are most likely consistent with your genetics. I'm in my early 30s, haven't run in 10 years and can still run a sub-6:00 mile off zero training. I'm not telling you that to brag or put you down, but to illustrate the principle—some people have above-average genetics, and others, below. If you cannot break 6:00 off the miles you're running, you simply fall into the latter category.

work on sprinting/getting out of your comfort zone. it seems like you're "stuck" at a certain pace and you'll have to break that. At the moment, you just seem to be doing long distance stuff which is kind of mind-boggling given your intent on working on your speed. Even a few strides here and there will be better than nothing.

If you can't "comfortably" run below 6 minute pace, the goal obviously is to get you to that point.

So, start short. Maybe strides of 60-100 meters at first. Then 200s, 400s, 600s, 800s. So on. The progression won't be week to week, or perhaps even truly linear. But, within genetic limits, it will happen.

Extension of specific intensity should be the goal.

1) Shorter speed work -- 150s or 200s to get your body used to that speed

2) Barefoot diagonals (if you look up you should find these) can help with turnover and form -- I find it makes you run with a stronger core

3) Biking can help with turnover if you get to 90-100 rpm cadence

4) Lunges/squats etc. strengthen the posterior chain -- gets more push off for each stride.

Some combination of that should accomplish quicker turnover and more powerful stride, and that's all you need.

Don't get caught up in mileage if your goal is pure speed. Your body just needs to learn how to run faster

Dow Theory fwiw... who knows wrote:

I would suggest following a well-rounded training plan, with a little periodization & good balance between several paces.

Something like a plan from Daniels Running Formula will have you regularly hitting easy pace, marathon pace, threshold pace, interval pace, repetition pace, and short strides.

The faster stuff is going to suck at first b/c you have neglected it (and it might be a weak area for you in general). The only way to get better at it is to practice it. Baby steps & small increments, especially at first, but over time you will get more comfortable. The economy gained will help you at all race distances.

Obviously if your goal is the marathon the shorter, faster paces will be limited, and not emphasized. But, don't completely neglect them. Everything helps build the overall masterpiece.

I like this answer a lot --- thank you. A well rounded plan, with some focus on faster stuff, and trying to run w/ better form via hills or intervals is probably going to help. Haven't read Daniels yet. Used Hanson-like approach before, but nothing specific in the fast category.

no shitty coaches wrote:

You don't need mileage regardless of what the majority of runners think. The times you're running are most likely consistent with your genetics. I'm in my early 30s, haven't run in 10 years and can still run a sub-6:00 mile off zero training. I'm not telling you that to brag or put you down, but to illustrate the principle—some people have above-average genetics, and others, below. If you cannot break 6:00 off the miles you're running, you simply fall into the latter category.

That's fine. I am not going to cry about genetics. I ask myself if I have the genes to run sub 3 in the marathon. If I do, I want to get there. If not, that sucks. And I don't know the answer.

FWIW I can break 6:00 at the end of a 8 mile progressive tempo run and have done. What I can't do is go much lower than that.

ghjkghjk wrote:

work on sprinting/getting out of your comfort zone. it seems like you're "stuck" at a certain pace and you'll have to break that. At the moment, you just seem to be doing long distance stuff which is kind of mind-boggling given your intent on working on your speed. Even a few strides here and there will be better than nothing.

I should have clarified better than my only long term goal is sub 3 in the marathon.

But seems my PR-progression has vastly slowed year to year, I have started asking myself if my limitation is speed, hence the thread.

Agree up to now have focused more on distance building.

Fastest I ran in recent history is 2:50 800, 1:21 400 and close to 5 min pace for 200. It's just comical how I can't control my form in those efforts.

chasingzatopek wrote:

1) Shorter speed work -- 150s or 200s to get your body used to that speed

2) Barefoot diagonals (if you look up you should find these) can help with turnover and form -- I find it makes you run with a stronger core

3) Biking can help with turnover if you get to 90-100 rpm cadence

4) Lunges/squats etc. strengthen the posterior chain -- gets more push off for each stride.

Some combination of that should accomplish quicker turnover and more powerful stride, and that's all you need.

Don't get caught up in mileage if your goal is pure speed. Your body just needs to learn how to run faster

Appreciate this post as well. What about short hill sprints? Aren't they good as substitute for intervals, and improve form at the same time? I ran up a 10%-15% hill recently which pretty much required to be on the forefoot, that was quite a different feel.

Dynamics wise, vertical oscillation is a bit high but I doubt that's the biggest issue. Based on your diagnosis of your own stride it sounds like you need to work on sprinting speed and form, which in turn will help with form overall.

Here's a reallllly good progression from steve magness for going from steep hill sprints to flat strides. This will make you faster.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/05/sprint-training-part-2.html

You're welcome. Hope it helps.

Also, initially I would suggest cutting the distance down on your short intervals. Do 80-150m strides, and 200m repetitions with plenty of recovery rather than 400s. Then eventually go to 300m. Then after those are no longer demanding to to 400m if you want. Daniels has you do these around your 1-mile race pace... so they're definitely not all-out. You want to learn to run comfortably fast, with quick turnover, and avoid straining & tying up. If you are straining & tying up, your body isn't going to learn what you're trying to teach it.

Good luck!

One more idea - I haven't used these a lot, but I think they can be helpful - occasionally do some strides down a slight decline. Nothing too steep. This can help you get practice at running quicker than normal without straining, and will slightly lengthen your stride versus running on the flat.

Try to find some hard-pack dirt or firm grass for these, rather than pavement, if you can. And make sure you don't jump in to too many at first, since there will be more impact force than running on the flat.

The short, 6-10 second, uphill sprints you asked about can be good for developing strength & power. I do think they serve a different purpose than quick strides & repetitions. You aren't learning to run fast & relaxed on a 6-second hill sprint. Definitely ease into these as well (Hudson suggests something like: week 1: Tue: 1 rep, Fri: 2 reps; week 2: Tue: 3 reps, Fri: 4 reps; week 3: Tue: 5 reps, and Fri: 6 reps), etc...

You'll need patience & a long-term perspective introducing any of these ideas, especially if you are injury-prone. That's why a solid 16-20 week balanced training plan that guides you can be a big help.

Daniels is good. Get the 3rd edition if you do check it out. If you like the Hansons approach, maybe following one of their 5k or 10k training plans (I assume they've published some), for a cycle would be a decent idea for you to get some time with the faster speeds. After that, go back to their marathon program.

Excellent stuff --- many thanks again, and one more question: are you guys able to do the faster stuff in your trainers (I run in Asics GT 2000), or do you systematically change in performance trainers/racing shoes when running reps or anything fast?

Seems like the Asics isn't flexible enough for real speedy workouts.

You're very right about "fast and relaxed". When I see athletes in 1-mile race like 5th ave, or even 5000, they seem to be "jogging" in control at real fast speed. If you ask me to run 1 mile pace, I look like a stupid bullet throwing its body around and straining every muscle.

With regards to stride length, I think I lack good hip extension. I have huge quads, very dominant anterior muscle. Basically no use of glutes/hamstring, so this is somethign I will want to focus on as well. Found this set:

which looks promising.

oheo wrote:

Dynamics wise, vertical oscillation is a bit high but I doubt that's the biggest issue. Based on your diagnosis of your own stride it sounds like you need to work on sprinting speed and form, which in turn will help with form overall.

Here's a reallllly good progression from steve magness for going from steep hill sprints to flat strides. This will make you faster.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/05/sprint-training-part-2.html

Love to read Steve Magness stuff, thanks for sending. I definitely need to bookmark this thread now.

You are right vertical oscillation is high (and increases with speed, I'm in the 8-9mm at slow pace but 10-11 when running fast). My cadence and ground contact time are OK, but I am too bouncy and stride length too short. My belief is lack of hip extension.