What are LRCers thoughts on using a glycogen depletion marathon training method?

One piece of advice for anyone trying this, Be prepared for a weekend battle!

Canova has mentioned using it for his runners so I would say that it is effective.

You could find it using the search and I believe one particular thread he was giving detailed training of one of his marathoners. I believe they would do a run in the morning, 1.5 hours or something, and then NO carbs before the evening longer run. Not used very often though.

Most coaches throw a carb depleted run in there once or twice but regular depletion runs are a waste of time since you will not be fasting during the marathon so why would you fast during the training?

Blitzplay wrote:

I don't know much about this methods results other than it was a big thing back in the 70's and 80's. Am i right in saying that you starve yourself of carbs on the run up to some of the long runs to teach your body to burn fat more efficiently?

Is this an effective tool in training?

Why do very few people use it these days?

The old lady wrote:

Most coaches throw a carb depleted run in there once or twice but regular depletion runs are a waste of time since you will not be fasting during the marathon so why would you fast during the training?

To become more efficient at burning fat.

Can be a useful training tool, as most things can be, but don't kill your athletes.

Running first thing in the morning when you're low on liver glycogen is one thing, but that "starve" word raises some red flags. I've experimented with back to back long(er) runs on Saturday and Sunday, in order to limit some of that glycogen recovery in between the two. For example, a hard-ish effort for 13 miles on Saturday and then an easy 15-16 miler on Sunday. You would probably increase mileage for both of those for marathon training, as I am certainly not a marathoner.

I also know some coaches who would have runners do a weekly ten mile morning run with another ten mile afternoon-evening run, to increase the quality/speed of mileage over just 20 straight.

I can tell you, pretty much straight up, that restricting carbohydrates isn't going to limit glycogen stores if you're still going calorie heavy in the other two macro-nutrients. Gluconeogenesis is a thing, and your body is going to use whatever you give it to fuel your legs. I would personally, for that reason, lean towards more mileage with split runs in order to run pre-fatigued, but I'm always willing to listen to other peoples experiments!

Glycogen stores will naturally rise during the taper.

I would not intend to use this method as a constant. I would use it akin to certain workouts. Maybe 3-4 times a cycle on a long run. I think it would be impossible to do this for a full cycle as that would just be starvation and I believe it would end training very early in the cycle through overtraining.

Minister of Truth wrote:

Glycogen stores will naturally rise during the taper.

i used it quite a bit training for an ultra. it's easy to overdo it, and if you're sacrificing much quality, it's not worth it. i think it's useful early on in the training cycle but when mileage and intensity ramp up, making one of your runs feel like shit isn't a very good idea when you're tired already. get sage to post in here, he uses that method pretty effectively. i agree with the point though that you're not going to be fasted going into a marathon, so it's essentially like you're training for a variable that doesn't exist.

You're going to be more efficient at burning fat just by doing long runs and running high mileage. Now some strategic carb depletion (i.e. skipping breakfast before a long run) can be done a couple times a week with caution. The key is to run at a moderate intensity (fat burning zone, 70-75% max HR effort usually) and go above 20 miles on the long run/workout.

Or maybe you do intervals/a hard tempo in the morning and then do a 40-60min double in the evening off of minimal carb intake in-between.

Personally when I ran my best marathon (2:16:52). I would do into Hansons 3 by 3 mile workouts off of just black coffee in the morning. I'd do their 20 mile Long Runs (very hard) and fill my bottles with water (much to Keith and Kevin's dismay as they wanted me drinking something like Gatorade...but then again their approach was/is not scientific)

I'd also throw in the idea of doing some pretty long long runs like 22 to 28 miles at a moderate intensity (which of course the Hansons never let me do as i was limited to 20 mile long runs). You might have to take a gel or two after 20 miles to avoid an epic bonk, but the idea is not to suck down a lot of carbs and rely on that sugar too much in training.

But come race day you want to go to town on carbs in the middle and late in the race (as long as your stomach can handle it!).

There was a study done on Canada's best marathoners where they did this kind of strategic carb-depletion approach with their diet and workouts and all ran in the 2:10 to 2:12 range. You don't have to go all Paleo and low-carb with your overall diet though. Enjoy some frickin beer and pizza!

S. Canaday wrote:

You're going to be more efficient at burning fat just by doing long runs and running high mileage.

More efficient at running, not at burning fat. Marathon Misconception Numero Uno Sageio.

Minister of Truth wrote:

Glycogen stores will naturally rise during the taper.

This.

Canova's big thing is the special block. It is basically a hard morning session with a long tempo around MP. The runners then avoid carbs for lunch/snacks and do another long tempo session in the afternoon. Total mileage on the day will be 20+.

I have never done a special block, but do all my runs before breakfast, including long runs. I never take gus on runs. I do drink Gatorade on long runs. My best two marathons (2:45 and 2:47--master runner) were both wall/bonk free and after training that was very Canova-esque (lots of hard long runs, long tempos and long intervals). One of the two had no Gatorade the second half due to a foul up by race organizers. Still had plenty in the tank to finish well at that one.

There is definitely something to the whole carb depletion thing.

i had my best marathons after doing this. i am in favor of it.

I've found that intentionally bonking a couple of times in training is good prep for a marathon. I typically do this on easier, hour long runs by undereating a bit during the day and running in the evening.

Have also read that you can increase glycogen storage by waiting a while to eat after a hard run. This'll slow recovery, though.

so what? you can only store enough glycogen to run 20-22 miles at marathon pace...so even if you are at max storage, you'll run out.

asosdfjaoijf wrote:

Minister of Truth wrote:

Glycogen stores will naturally rise during the taper.

This.

nbskis wrote:

i agree with the point though that you're not going to be fasted going into a marathon, so it's essentially like you're training for a variable that doesn't exist.

Could you elaborate more on this point? I am not very well versed in this method but I always thought the idea of glycogen depleted runs was to teach your body to burn a higher percentage of fat and a smaller percentage of carbs at marathon pace thus preserving a greater amount of glycogen for the last few miles of the race(relative to a non depleted training). If our bodies are more efficient at burning fat, it will be inclined to use more fat as fuel early in the race.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Blitzplay wrote:

nbskis wrote:

i agree with the point though that you're not going to be fasted going into a marathon, so it's essentially like you're training for a variable that doesn't exist.

Could you elaborate more on this point? I am not very well versed in this method but I always thought the idea of glycogen depleted runs was to teach your body to burn a higher percentage of fat and a smaller percentage of carbs at marathon pace thus preserving a greater amount of glycogen for the last few miles of the race(relative to a non depleted training). If our bodies are more efficient at burning fat, it will be inclined to use more fat as fuel early in the race.

Correct me if I am wrong.

I think there's also something to be said for mentally conditioning yourself to the experience of glycogen depletion.

Interesting stuff! Thanks Sage.

You mention you have done this going into your 3x3 workout. I do a canova style 4x5k workout with 3 minute recoveries at 30k pace. Would I be better off pulling the workout pace back to MP and use a depleted strategy? I didn't even think about it being useful in this sense.

As I am new to this method, would you recommend using it a couple of times a week for me? It seems like there could be a thin line between success and overtraining for a newbie to this method.

I have never had a problem guzzling gels on raceday. It's the isotonic drinks which get me. I don't need an excuse but I will use any one I can to drink a beer and gorge on a pizza.