HADD'S Approach To Distance Running

Just so you know, 11:07 is not your 3200 PR. It's whatever you split in your 5k.

It is difficult to find all of Hadd's posts and therefore difficult to train as efficiently as you would have if you could have worked directly with him.

I think you should find a coach that you can talk to directly to help guide you but if not make sure you read and understand

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=134124&page=1

I understand the article, I read a lot of HADD'S threads before taking this on.

My main questions

1. And how would I structure my 5K training after base? Any advice on how I should space out my speed, tempos, long runs, etc.? (I do know workouts from HADD thread, I just want to know how to space them through week)

2. If I'm at 50-60 MPW at the end of this base building in September, do I keep the mileage the same while introducing 5k workouts like speed/tempos or do I lower the mileage when I add them gradually? (Don't want to get injured.)

3. My weekly mileage progression over 10 weeks since May 20 has been like this: 27,28,32,33,38,38,41,42,41,47...

Do I still have to take down weeks or can I keep it consistent? I basically run the same mileage then I up it every 3 weeks and keep it the same for another 3 until I up it again. Is this a safe progression? (I want to hit 60 mpw by September before true 5k training begins, etc.)

Also, even if I haven't "mastered" all the work day heart rate zones, can I still do phase 2a (speedwork) stuff and get in really good 5k shape, and then get in mile shape for track next year? (then do HADD again only with more mileage next year)

Thanks!

1. You're getting way ahead of yourself. Do the base training first, then re-evaluate.

2. 50-60 MPW is the starting point for Hadd's base training, not the finishing point.

3. Based on your progression to date I'd suggest you get right at some 50+ mile weeks and then take a 40-45 mile week as a break, then get back to 55-60, down to 50, then 60+ and down to 55 or so.

As far as overall progression is concerned, you can do whatever you like, but if you actually want to benefit from the Hadd base training, do it right before changing gears.

I can't answer these as Hadd would but let's think for a moment. Are you really a good candidate for this?

Are your long and short races really not equivalent?

I don't think you know enough to say for sure.

The Hadd method takes a long time. You can cycle in and out of it but that is only going to make it take longer.

Would you have more fun if you find a coach and drop your 5k to say 15:30 by next spring and then start in on a long term effort to squeeze the last of the toothpaste?

Haven't seen a HADD discussion on here in some time. There was a poster named Pete who had a lot of success with it and was sort of a reference guy/champion of that system.

I had a friend do it but only did a base phase for a marathon. Based on his preparation I'd say the base phase was not enough. It was difficult to get people (HADD or people who claimed to know) to share schedules beyond the base phase.

I don't have any college coach to "get me to 15:30" which is why I'm looking for advice as to what and how to run after base...

Basically what's the best kind of training after base how do you transition from that to actual training? How do you train for a 5K at all? Should I get Daniel's Book? (and be in Mile to HM shape year round?)

Man, you gotta back up the bus.

what are your goals here? or do you just wanna do HADDs training to say you did HADDs training or do you actually have goals. my opinion no matter how unprofessional it really is, is that you pick a race maybe in the spring or early summer next year and train for it. you can enter other races along the way and still set pr's. but pick a race now and set a goal and start training for that event...

as for JD's book, i would get it, as well as a Lydiard book, and maybe Steve Magnes's book. they are 3 very different training perspectives but will definitely open your mind. Don't follow a specific plan, create your own based on what you take out of each book. you know what your body needs more than a book does.

to start off though, I would suggest building a larger base. spend a couple months building mileage and general speed doing strides and hill strides. try to work up to 60-75 miles a week.

Then I will build to 60-70 mpw until around September, then go into the harder workouts.

Would it be okay to do a time trial in the 1 mile in 2 weeks or would it hurt my aerobic system?

Sounds like you like the idea of getting the benefits of Hadd training without actually doing the work. It's a deliberate and potentially slow approach that demands (and rewards) patience and the steady slog of getting out and doing good work day after day.

I'm not sure what you expect or need to gain from the time trial, but if you want to do one it won't kill you. But if you keep doing them you'll be wasting your time

Like Joe in the 5k in the long thread, if you run a 1 mile time trial it is going to feel like you have a speed limit and your time will be kind of meaningless.

You don't need a college coach to get you to 15:30. You could talk to your HS coach and together work out a plan.

It sounds like you are going to college, just not running. If so you might even be able to get your future college coach to help you with a plan. While your future coach might not have much time, they may also have a general plan that they hand out for summer that you could follow. The advantage would be that it would fit best with your future coach's training.

If not look up Summer of Malmo. It is the best general purpose training. Once you have been training SOM for a while, start running races at a variety of distances say every 3 weeks. Once you have 5 or 6 race times you should begin to get an idea what is a good/bad race and if your times follow a strong aerobic trend.

its your body man. but a 1mile time trail wont show you much. a 2mile or 5km will tell you a little more.

be catious though, if you havent been that high before 60-70 miles its a lot for the body to handle.

Just here to update all of you on my progress so far...

Big improvements on all my runs...

Back in May I could only manage 8:50 pace at 160 bpm for 45 minutes, but now it's down to 7:50/mi at @144 bpm for 1 hour (last week)

I use my Garmin W/ HR monitor on my runs:

5/26/14: 45 Minutes; 8:40/mi @159 BPM

8/22/14: 60 Minutes; 7:52/mi $144 BPM (BIG improvement)

I'm now at 50 MPW, and feeling a lot of the effects HADD described in his posts. My runs are basically 1 hour every day with work days, and the Florida weather doesn't help but I managed very well.

I recently ran (and won) a 5K yesterday morning with a 17:18, which I split: 5:31, 5:30, 5:39...

My 2nd mile was FASTER than my first. I felt like I couldn't go faster (had almost no kick) but if I slowed down to about 5:40-5:45/mi I could've gone for 10K.

It felt amazing, and it was my 2nd fastest time too.

I'm going to continue this Phase 1 building up slowly to 60 MPW, and by late October I will start Phase 2A

(speedwork/intervals, Tempos, races, fast long runs, etc.) for an 8 week period and hopefully peak by late December, then after that, a 4 week period of longer slow runs with 1 long tempo a week for a half marathon Mid-January. I'm approaching Phase 2A like a fast twitch since I'm more FT than ST.

This is what this week looks like:

Mon: 60 min easy @140-145 bpm

Tue: 45 min work @170-176 bpm

Wed: 60 min easy @140-145 bpm

Thu: 60 min easy @140-145 bpm

Fri: 45 min work @170-176 bpm

Sat: 90 min long @140-150 bpm

Sun: Rest

Every 4th week I take a down week where I only do easy runs and no work days. I hope to get my long runs to 2 hours when I'm at 60 MPW, and my work days to 174-180 BPM (88-90% of Max HR)

Forgot to add, I also did not do the mile time trial. I only do a 5K once a month or so (like the one I did yesterday) to see how this training is affecting feel/splits, but no more than once a month. Regardless, I'm not doing another one now until October, so I could focus more on this training. (I do 200m strides 1X per week)

This looks impressive. Part of getting fitter is getting the requisite recovery. Your HR-based training might be naturally putting you in the sweet-spot of the super-compensation curve. Would be interesting to see how long you can continue to progress just doing this type of training, with your pace continuing to come down at the same HR.

listen up... wrote:

This looks impressive. Part of getting fitter is getting the requisite recovery. Your HR-based training might be naturally putting you in the sweet-spot of the super-compensation curve. Would be interesting to see how long you can continue to progress just doing this type of training, with your pace continuing to come down at the same HR.

Speaking of improvement/progress...

I just averaged 7:46/mi at 144 BPM for 60 minutes this morning.

My 11 mile (90 min) long run Saturday was 7:58/mi averaging 142 BPM (keeping it around 135-140 for about 40 min) so I beat my previously mentioned 7:52/mi at 144.

The weather is getting a little better now that it's September so that may contribute a bit but it's only a few degrees cooler.

Yesterday morning, I did one of the workdays (I do twice a week) and since I "mastered" 164-170 BPM for 1 hour, I now run at 170-176 BPM.

Yesterday I managed a perfect 6:35/mi pace for 45 minutes with very little cardiac drift (my splits were VERY consistent, varying by only a second or two.) it took about 2 miles to get to the target 170 BPM and towards the end I was nearing 176 BPM. My average hr for the run averaged at 169 BPM! The pace felt very easy and I felt strong, like I could've gone another 15 min. I think I'll move up to 60 min next week if I do good on my 2nd work day this Friday. This week I increased my long run to 105 minutes from 90:

Mon: 60 min easy 140-145

Tues: 45 min work 170-176

Wed: 60 min easy 140-145

Thu: 60 min easy 140-145

Fri: 45 min work 170-176

Sat: 105 min long run 140-150

Sun: rest

For anyone interested, here's weekly my mileage since may 14 (according to garmin)

8 (after one month layoff post cardiac svt ablation, all I did was 5x2400)

27

28

32

33 (just easy 30 min and 45 min runs for these first 4 weeks with 60 min long run)

38

38

41

43

42

47

48 (I started work days here, 164-170 2x a week with 90 min long run)

47

51

50 (down week, no work days, just easy runs and a 5k and 75min LR)

53 (had my yearly cold, so I ran easy this week and only one work day)

23.8 so far this week, doing much better. I'm going for 56-57 and then in 3 weeks I'll be at 60.

I will take a down week every 4th week where I will keep the same mileage but no workdays.

This is kind of like an experiment but it is definitely showing results. I'm actually amazed that just 3 months ago I could barely run 6:50/mi at 190 BPM for only 1.5 miles when now I can hold 6:30/mi for 45 min at 170 BPM.

This shit actually does work. Don't tell anybody...

Nice job, keep it up!

UPDATE:This is turning into an all out experiment, and I hope to contribute to Letsrun with my findings. I will use this thread to post my results.I am now 17 weeks into this HADD training. I've come along very far, but still have some left before 5K-specific training.I ran 1Hr and 45 Min Saturday morning. 13 Miles at 8:01/mi avg. 144 bpm. My legs felt good, and ran 56 miles that week.One VERY interesting thing I discovered is how sleep (or lack there-of) has an effect on Heart rates/how I feel. For last 3 weeks, I slept consistently at 10:00-10:30 pm every night. I ran great last 3 weeks, and a great 5K too. The last 3 days, I've stayed up late. Saturday night I stayed up until 1:30 am, Sunday 12 am, and Monday I went to bed at 11 pm but didn't fall asleep until 12:30 am. I noticed 3 Major Things:1. Lack of sleep affects resting/morning heart rates. My 1 hour easy run yesterday morning was noticeably slower at the same given HR as a run last week under the same weather. (Example: 8:02/mi @144bpm while I was 7:52/mi @144 last week on a run)2. Morning resting heart rates are higher. Normally, I take my morning resting heart rates (and drink the SAME amount water to hydrate) and after hydration, it will go at it's lowest. I chart what the LOWEST HR went, I lay down and let it drop. Most days I get 40 bpm, others I get 41 bpm, and occasionally, I get 39 bpm, and I'll know I'm going to have a very good run. I've had good runs even if it drops to only 41 as well. I'll know 39-41 is normal but 40 is common.With lack of sleep, I notice I get 41 virtually every day, even if I didn't run for a day. I haven't had 39 bpm for over a week now! Although weather does have more of an effect, resting HR in the morning seems to have a slight but NOTICABLE effect on my runs. The lower the better.3. My pace perception at any given HR becomes "skewed." Example: I'll be running at what I feel honest to God is a 7:50/mi pace, and I find I'm really running 8:20/mi. I have to force my legs to go faster (extremely frustrating). My legs feel heavier and I have to "work" harder to run the same pace. My avg. Heart rate will also be higher on the any given run. This had a major effect on my "work day" or Sub LT-Run day today. Since I ran last week so well, I was going for 1 hour at a sustained 170-176 bpm HR. I had to cut it short today. Here's actual data (Garmin) from This week compared to last week with avg. HR per splits:Early Bedtime VS Late BedtimeSplits/avg.HR (Sep.2) Splits/avg.HR (Sep.8)Mile 1: 6:38 HR 153; Mile 1: 6:40 HR 155 bpm Mile 2: 6:35 HR 167; Mile 2: 6:39 HR 168 bpmMile 3: 6:34 HR 170; Mile 3: 6:40 HR 172 bpm Mile 4: 6:36 HR 173; Mile 4: 6:41 HR 173 bpmMile 5: 6:35 HR 174; Mile 5: 6:46 HR 175 bpmMile 6: 6:35 HR 175; Mile 6: 7:03 HR 174 bpm Last 5 Mins.HR 176; Quit after mile 6. 45 Min; 6:35/mi HR 169 40 Min; 6:45/mi HR 169(Clearly I ran much worse today than last week) Totals/Bed Times for past 3 days/temperature and dew point:Sept 2: 10:00-10:30 pm; 75F, 72FSept 8: 12:00-12:30 am 75F, 72FThe work day Friday, Sept. 5 was very identical to Sept. 2's run, so I won't post it here for comparison. Notice how the heart rates are about 1-2 bpm higher each split on this one compared to last week's AT AN EVEN SLOWER PACE, even under the same weather conditions! Yes, both HR and pace was worse, not one but both.How I felt; Early VS Late BedtimeSeptember 2's (Last week) On last week's run, I had no trouble keeping the pace, my legs felt springy on the easy runs, and the 6:30 pace felt very easy and invigorating. I honestly could've kept on running for another 15 minutes. Felt great!Today, (on this week's run) I had a much harder time holding a sub 6:40 pace. A 6:50 pace felt like 6:30 pace! I finally got tired of forcing the pace down, and decided to cut the run to only 45 min instead of doing 1 hour. I also felt subtle hints of diarrhea knocking on the door around mile 5. I ran regardless, but I finally broke down towards the end of the 6th mile (38 minutes in). Yes it was that bad, and not the diarrhea, My legs just felt so heavy I couldn't go anymore. YES, I could've FORCED the pace and ran faster, and I tried but it felt MISERABLE. I finally stopped at 41 at exactly mile 6 and just walked back home.That is why as you see above, the last mile I averaged 174 bpm (lower than last week). I was only at a 7:03 mile, which was way off pace. I couldn't run faster to get my HR up to 176 again, and I just didn't feel like pushing. Even Yesterday during the 1 hour easy (140-145) I just wasn't feeling it. I haven't been "feeling" it all week, yet I ran so much better last week. Only difference? Better bedtimes.I can finally conclude, without any further doubts, that lack of sleep (even a little bit) will have a SIGNIFICANT impact on your running, and Both HR, pace perception and overall motivation will be affected. It seems that I recover much better sleeping anywhere from 9:30-10:30 pm every night CONSISTENTLY than I do at 12:30 am. Even if I sleep during the day to "make it up" (it does help a little) there's just something about going to bed at 10:00 pm that the body needs. Also, consistency is most important. My bed time the last 5 days has been 11 pm, Saturday I stayed up until 1:30 am. Those days, I didn't fall asleep until 12:30 am. (insomnia symptoms) since the sleepiness has "passed" and now I get this second wind of energy around there. Starting TONIGHT, I will go to bed at 9:30-9:45 pm, NO LATER, for the next 7 days. I will update you on the results (how I feel, improvements, HR's etc.) in a few days. I'll answer any questions during this period. I run my "hard" days Tuesday and Friday mornings, so hopefully I'll run MUCH better Friday after earlier bedtime. Stay tuned!

old dude from way back wrote:

This shit actually does work. Don't tell anybody...

Nice job, keep it up!

You bet it does, but it is certainly not for the impatient at all.

Yes sleep is important.

The weather also changes your heart rate. When it is hot your heart rate can be higher. Of course, it doesn't have to be, if you get dehydrated... Or...

Heart rate is a reasonably good tool and this training can help for a long while but make sure you keep your 5k race every month and maybe a 20-5 x 200 at 5k pace with 5k +2:00 paced 200m recoveries midway between races.