Track nerds: Was Michael Carter's 81'3.5" shot put in 1979 truly the "greatest high school performance ever?"

3:53 is 2nd best all time behind cheryl millers 105 point game.

Worth a read: http://www.maxpreps.com/news/AKvaJEaUEeCkhgAcxJSkrA/ten-most-untouchable-track-and-field-prep-records.htm

Yes, Carter was the number 1 prep of all time. I was on a junior AAU trip with him vs. USSR in Donyetsk in July 1978 after his junior year of high school. He had amazing speed and power.

Others to consider: In terms of marks, Renaldo Nehemiah's 12.9 hand timed 120-yd hurdles (39 inch, not 42) was a good one.

For performances, Bob Mathias won the Olympic Decathlon at 18.

Cool article in the Sac Bee. I didn't know that the WR shotput holder had a career riddled with bans. Why is his WR still considered valid? Are Timmermann, Andrei, or Oldfield any more clean?

Also, how heavy is the senior shotput? Same as NCAA at 16lbs?

Anyways, from what I've read, Carter's 81-foot heave deserves recognition, even beyond Webb's stellar mile.

I'd love to see people list what they think the best HS prep performances/records are, both male and female. Fascinating subject.

I think some of Cain's performances are just as (if not more so) impressive as 3:53: her 1:59, 9:38 2-mile, or 4:04, as well as her 15:45 (I think that was it).

What are some of the other great prep performances?

I think Darrell Robinson's 44.69 400 deserves mention. That's a world-class performance at the quarter.

Ryun's 3:55.3 is greater than Webb's HSR, because, well he won and beat the reigning Olympic champ Peter Snell.

GoldenMiles wrote:

Worth a read:

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/AKvaJEaUEeCkhgAcxJSkrA/ten-most-untouchable-track-and-field-prep-records.htm

Well Mary Cain kind of discredits that list, huh?

oldboy wrote:

GoldenMiles wrote:

Worth a read:

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/AKvaJEaUEeCkhgAcxJSkrA/ten-most-untouchable-track-and-field-prep-records.htm

Well Mary Cain kind of discredits that list, huh?

Yeah, it's a little old. Cain's records are all the more impressive that she beat some of these "untouchable" records. I think her 1:59, 4:04, and 9:38 are on par, if not superior to, Webb's 3:53.

In other news, 22.11 is an insane women's 200, although I see it was set at altitude.

What's the deal with altitude WRs? I know the 300M WR was set at altitude.

Carter deserves extra credit for improving the shot gene pool. His record put is up there with Beamon's flyer at Mexico City...yes not a high schooler.

Only winning performances should count in this discussion...

3:55.3 wrote:

Ryun's 3:55.3 is greater than Webb's HSR, because, well he won and beat the reigning Olympic champ Peter Snell.

FALSE. Add in the East Africans and Snell doesn't sniff a medal. It was a different time. Ryun is arguably the best prep distance runner of all time, but Webb's 3:53 trumps anything he ran as a prep.

What other 35-year-old high school record still stands?

Didn't Bob Mathias win the Olympic Decathlon while in HS? Or maybe just out. He was 17, I believe.

Oh, I believe it is a law that you have say "grueling" whenever mentioning the decathlon. So there it is. Grueling.

For dudes,

400m 44.69 since 1982, 32 years

Mile 3:58.3 since 1965, 49 years (HS Only competition)

3k Steeple 8:50.1 since 1979, 35 years

10k 28:32.7 since 1976, 38 years

Marathon 2:23 since 1973, 41 years

Triple Jump 52-10 since 1980, 34 years

For ladies,

Long jump 22-3 since 1976, 38 years

Milt Campbell who came in second in the decathlon was a high schooler.

Then there is Ted Meredith, just out of high school, who won two Olympic gold medals and set world records for the 800/880.

Who did Webb beat in his 3:53?

Ryan Crouser who set the Discus record. Crouser was only 4 feet off the record indoors, if he was healthy in the spring it might have been close.

It is a beastly record and Crouser could end up with a shot put gold medal...Carter was straight beast and a 49er, so I think he is the greatest :)

3:55 on dirt in 1966, beating the Olympic champion, is amazing, but 81' stands out.

uphill run wrote:

3:55.3 wrote:

Ryun's 3:55.3 is greater than Webb's HSR, because, well he won and beat the reigning Olympic champ Peter Snell.

FALSE. Add in the East Africans and Snell doesn't sniff a medal. It was a different time. Ryun is arguably the best prep distance runner of all time, but Webb's 3:53 trumps anything he ran as a prep.

Snell raced Keino in Tokyo and beat him. And everyone else.

Ryun beat Snell in that 3:55.3 race, the reigning olympic gold medalist.

Also in the race was the reigning olympic silver medalist, Josef Odlozil.

I'd put that ahead of what Webb did.

Isn't it accepted that the top shot put marks from the late 70's / early 80's are all doped? So, if a high schooler threw longer than all the WRs of that era and some 10 feet longer than anybody today, surely we would have to assume it's doped?

Les wrote:

What other 35-year-old high school record still stands?

Ugh, was writing a long post replying to this on my tablet, but accidentally deleted it. I see someone else has already responded with the records that go past 35 years, but let me try to reformulate my previous post, which listed those at or near 35 years, plus some commentary:

On the girl's side:

1) Polly Plumer's 4:35 outdoor mile is almost at the 35-year mark. As far as I know, this has only been bettered by Cain's indoor mile, correct? And no, I'm not counting 1,500M conversions. Babcock's 4:33 1,600M isn't superior to Plumer's mile.

2) Mary Shea's very impressive 32:52 10,000M performance is 35 years old. What do you think the best HS girls (Hasay, Amber Trotter [who I almost never see mentioned on here for some reason, even though she is my pick for the most dominant HS female runner ever, perhaps ahead of even Cain and Hasay], Cain, Efraimson, Baxter) could get at a 10,000M if they tried in HS? I'm also curious what the guys could get, as Rupp was not able to really come close to Chapa's record.

3) The 12.95 100M hurdles record by Candy Young is 35 years old. I don't know enough about the event to judge the quality of the record, but I'd love to hear what others have to say.

4) The 400M hurdles record of 55.20 by Leslie Maxie is also 30 years old. Also not sure how impressive that is, but even 55 seconds by a high schooler for a flat 400M is impressive, in my books.

5) 22'3" long jump record by Kathy McMillan is from ALMOST 40 YEARS AGO. That's nuts. Has anyone come close to this?

6) There's also the women's 4 x 1,500M relay time of 18:52.5 is from almost 35 years ago, but it's an event that is basically almost never run. For instance, a girl in that race ran 4:55, as well as another running 4:48. Polly Plumer, the HS outdoor mile record holder at 4:35, only ran 4:28 in that relay race, a performance nowhere near her 4:35 mile. Weak record. Someone should go after it.

7) There's also Cathy Schiro's 2:34 marathon record, from 1984. No one runs marathons anymore at that age, although I do remember reading in a Runner's World article recently on the front page, about the top HS/junior female runners in the country (especially Mary Cain and Alexa Efraimson), about a high school girl who was running impressive marathon times. Anyone else remember this? Is she close to Schiro's times? Could she break them?

On the boy's side:

1) Roy Martin's insane 20.13 (both of them) and Darrell Robinson's almost more impressive 44.69 (only HSer EVER under 45 seconds, and he's WELL under) are both about 30 years old or so.

2) Jeff Hess's impressive 8:50 steeple is from 35 years ago. What do you guys think the best HS distance runners could grab in this (think, Rupp or Ritz or Fernandez or Verzbicas or Cheserek especially)?

3) Rudy Chapa's astonishing 28:32 10,000M. What's second place? 28:45-50? I know a few others have run under 29 minutes, but not many. I don't think Rupp was able to break 29. Again, as I mentioned with the girl's 10,000M record, what do you guys think exceptional athletes like Cheserek, Verzbicas, Webb (well, probably not him, since I'm sure Ritz could've beaten him over the 5,000M, much less the 10,000M), Ritz, or others could've run for the 10 in HS?

4) The 3:07.40 4 x 400M record is from about 30 years ago. It had an insane anchor of 44.5 from Henry Thomas (what did he run for the 400M flat?).

5) The 4 x 1,500M relay, unsurprisingly, given its infrequently run nature, is quite old. It's 16:03.7, so about 4:00 average for each 1,500M (top HS athletes, I imagine, run around 3:50 or so for the 15). The fastest split is only 3:54.5, from Matt McGuirk. Imagine what those three teammates who ran under 9 minutes in the 2 mile in one race could do to this record?!

6) It's been mentioned on here a lot lately (at least given the esoteric nature of the 4 x mile relay), but the solid 17:06.6 4 x mile record is from almost forty years ago!

7) There is Michael Carter's 81'3.5", masterful shotput record from 1979, as well as his 67'9" "international/junior" shotput record. I'm assuming that's with a 16 lb. shotput, instead of 12 lbs.? Is that the same size that the seniors use? If so, that's pretty impressive, since that is 20.65 meters, and the WORLD RECORD for the shotput is "only" 3 meters more, at 23 meters (only two men have ever broken 23 meters, and apparently Barnes, the WR holder, was in trouble throughout a lot of his career for banned substances, although maybe this is the case for all major shotputters?).

8) Finally, like on the girl's side, there is that pesky marathon record from 1977 (2:23 by Clancy Devery--pretty impressive for a HS runner in my book). Just speculatively, what do you guys think that the top HS distance runners ever could've run, had they chosen to do a marathon? Sub-2:20 probably. I bet Lindgren ran some fast marathons in his training back then, for God's sake. Didn't he run 200-300 miles per week some weeks (!!!)?

9) In terms of high school races-only records, Jim Ryun's 3:58.3 mile reigns supreme, and is from 1965!!!! There's also Dan Garrett's 31:25 10,000M from 1983, which I don't find very impressive, given that the record is almost 3 minutes faster. Chris Derrick's 13:55 in a high school-only race is pretty damn impressive, though (not an old record). There's a 7'6" high school-only high jump from 1983, as well as high school-only records in the "international 110M hurdles" (I'm assuming this means adult-size hurdles?), sprint medley, long jump, and "international shotput" (again, 16 lbs.?), all from 30 years ago or more.