Out of Shape for XC

What pace is the 40 minute distance run? 20 minutes is not a distance run.

range from 7:30 to 6:40

Drop the 6 minute mile at the start of every run. It serves no purpose. What pace are you at for your 20-40 minute runs?

If you run only 5 days per week (consider going 6 days) try to run 40-50 minutes per day. Once per week run 3 miles in the middle of your run at threshold pace (6:00-6:30 per mile for you). Introduce a long run once per week of up to 60-80 minutes. Once per week add 10 fast strides of 20-30 seconds at the end of your run.

Many HS freshman would be happy to have your 2:12 and 4:40 marks. You definitely have running potential.

What your looking for is called SOM. Summer of Malmo. your welcome.

webfoot wrote:

...Once per week run 3 miles in the middle of your run at threshold pace (6:00-6:30 per mile for you)

A 4:40 miler should be able to do this but just realized you can only run 20 minutes for 3 miles at beginning of XC. Do this once per week 3-mile "threshold" workout at whatever pace you can handle, but make it faster than your normal pace.

Looking at your existing schedule your biggest problem is lack of continuous running. My guess is you stand around after your 6 minute mile. Stop that! Just run for 40-50 minutes per day.

webfoot wrote:

webfoot wrote:

...Once per week run 3 miles in the middle of your run at threshold pace (6:00-6:30 per mile for you)

A 4:40 miler should be able to do this but just realized you can only run 20 minutes for 3 miles at beginning of XC. Do this once per week 3-mile "threshold" workout at whatever pace you can handle, but make it faster than your normal pace.

Looking at your existing schedule your biggest problem is lack of continuous running. My guess is you stand around after your 6 minute mile. Stop that! Just run for 40-50 minutes per day.

By the 20 min 3 mile, I meant that's what i historically come into season at, last year it was even a 22, though I dropped into the 16's. Right now i could do the 6:00 pretty handily, and i was wondering if I should push the pace even more, or just stay relaxed. If i go into season in 16:30 3 mile shape, as I hope to, could I break 16?

xcrunner1337 wrote:

last year it was even a 22, though I dropped into the 16's.

......... how..? Is your summer training that much different from what you do during the season? I don't even know... Do you run backwards at the start of the season or...?

Your runs are not long enough. 20-30 minutes is my typical a.m. run. Then I do 45-90 minutes in the evening. Most of my runs are at 150-160bpm heart rate, over grass or soft trails, and alternate hilly days with level ground days. My long runs are low heart rate, 135-150bpm average, lasting 2-3 hours...on trails.

How fast is the typical max heart rate after running relatively hard? After tempos, I usually get 210-240, which i then sometimes compare to others on my team, whos are considerably slower. Is that strange?

Yes, xc season is much harder, though without too high of mileage. 45-50 per week. I generally improve a lot in xc, and I definitely am never ready for the first day pf practice, with it generally being a tempo, or long intervals.

Nop200 wrote:

xcrunner1337 wrote:

last year it was even a 22, though I dropped into the 16's.

......... how..? Is your summer training that much different from what you do during the season? I don't even know... Do you run backwards at the start of the season or...?

xcrunner1337 wrote:

How fast is the typical max heart rate after running relatively hard? After tempos, I usually get 210-240, which i then sometimes compare to others on my team, whos are considerably slower. Is that strange?

You're heart rate is not that high after, well, anything you could possibly do. That is literally impossible.

xcrunner1337 wrote:

Yes, xc season is much harder, though without too high of mileage. 45-50 per week. I generally improve a lot in xc, and I definitely am never ready for the first day pf practice, with it generally being a tempo, or long intervals.

Nop200 wrote:

......... how..? Is your summer training that much different from what you do during the season? I don't even know... Do you run backwards at the start of the season or...?

Well then considering how well you respond to tempos/long intervals I would suggest you do them throughout the summer as well. Obviously not as frequent and intense as during the season...

I have a feeling all these other sports you do, particularly the swimming an cycling, are hurting your running? Do you continue with them during cross country season? If you don't then they may be contributing to your not being in the best of shape. You might want to cut the swimming and just run more -- 40-60 a day. It depends which sport you take the most seriously.

Nop200 wrote:Well then considering how well you respond to tempos/long intervals I would suggest you do them throughout the summer as well. Obviously not as frequent and intense as during the season...

Yes, exactly what I was thinking.

The OPs current approach of 6 minute mile and then 20 minute run at much slower pace IS NOT WORKING (I can't begin to tell you how crazy this approach is... where did it come from???). OP should try to run longer every day and include one weekly tempo/threshold run. Also including a longer run once per week is key (at least 50% longer than your normal run).

In HS doing this I improved from 17:30s 5k XC to 15:00 the next fall as a junior (and never running more than 60 per week). In college I ran a sub-29 10k in track off of 80-85 miles per week and one weekly threshold run, and one long run per week (15 miles) over the winter.

webfoot wrote:In college I ran a sub-29 10k in track off of 80-85 miles per week and one weekly threshold run, and one long run per week (15 miles) over the winter.

More information from personal experience....following this winter of college training I set all my track PRs (under 8 for 3k, under 14 for 5k, under 29 for 10k). The reason I did this training was because of an injury... I strained a hamstring playing touch football after NCAA XC the previous fall. I could only run 5 minute pace and slower while the rest of the team did normal training. It turned out this was the most effective training for me and I ran faster than most of my teammates.

Thank you so much for the replies, I will try to get more miles in with no break, and also get a tempo. Does the swimming actually hurt me? I thought it would help if anything. I was wondering if there were any suggestions for long interval workouts, that are a bit different, since I get bored of the usual tempos, 3000's, and mile repeats. What kind of fartleks are the most effective?

xcrunner1337 wrote:

Thank you so much for the replies, I will try to get more miles in with no break, and also get a tempo. Does the swimming actually hurt me? I thought it would help if anything. I was wondering if there were any suggestions for long interval workouts, that are a bit different, since I get bored of the usual tempos, 3000's, and mile repeats. What kind of fartleks are the most effective?

OP, the swimming probably *is* helping you long-term. I would suggest you stay with it, and avoid an all-running regimen, particularly in the first half of the summer. Couple other things:

1) You don't need to be race-ready at the beginning of the season. (That's one of the principles of the Summer of Malmo, which I recommend to lots of people.) You just need to be ready to start specific training, which you seem to do very well: your time drops a ton over the course of the season.

These other guys who are faster at the beginning of the season: do they stay ahead of you? Or do you pass by them as the season progresses? I'd bet the latter--which is a sign that your summer work is pretty productive for you. You should judge a summer's effectiveness by the last week of the fall season, not the first. From that standpoint, you already seem to be doing pretty well.

2) Related to the above. When you run a race or time trial at the beginning of the season, let me guess: you recover almost instantly, and five minutes after crossing the finish you're kicking yourself for not having pushed harder. Meanwhile, some of your teammates are still on the ground puking. Am I right?

This is not an automatic sign that their summer prep was better than yours, or that they're "tougher" in races than you are. To get everything from yourself in a race, you have to be very well trained--or almost not trained at all. You seem to be the former--by the end of the season, though not at its beginning; some of your teammates seem to be the latter. All else equal, you're the one who's going to coming closer to his potential in the meets that count the most.

3) You sound like the kind of runner (I was another) who benefits from a *mix* of different kinds of running. The Summer of Malmo builds on that concept, of course, but I'd also like you to investigate "true" fartlek--the kind that Holmér came up with, way back in the day. (Google is your friend.) I think you'd find that beneficial, maybe once or twice every week or two, especially if you don't have training partners you can do SoM with. Seriously, give some old-school fartlek a try.

OP, I think you're doing fine. I understand (and have shared) your early-season frustration, but a) I don't think it'll be quite as bad this year, and b) the way you progress through the fall is something to be proud of.

Please keep us posted periodically on how your summer and (especially) the following season progress.

PS When I was in high school I routinely got my pulse over 240 (60+ beats in a well-timed 15 seconds) when I ran the longer stuff hard. The poster who said that's impossible might be right--but for himself, not for you (or me). Some runners just have a higher "setpoint" for their maximum pulse.

Johnny Appleseed wrote:

Your runs are not long enough. 20-30 minutes is my typical a.m. run. Then I do 45-90 minutes in the evening. Most of my runs are at 150-160bpm heart rate, over grass or soft trails, and alternate hilly days with level ground days. My long runs are low heart rate, 135-150bpm average, lasting 2-3 hours...on trails.

is anyone going to point out how moronic this post is? the kid is a high school freshman i don't think he's planning on doubling or going out for 2-3 hour runs. Go gloat on another thread

Yes! This is exactly what I feel! I recover instantly, and I feel fine, like I just finished warmup. are there any good mental training methods to helping this? Last season, I ran 18 mins one race, then the next week I ran 16:50's, simply because Ilearned how to push myself, and from then out Iwas consistant. Also, how many miles a week would be ideal? does 45-50 sound about right, assuming the vast majority of those miles are easy? What shape should i come into season at, if I wanted to break 16 in a course just over 3 miles?