LeBron James - GOAT

You would have never seen Jordan carried off the floor because of a cramp. That was a man who tapped out. LeBron may be the best now, he may be great but he's far from the greatest.

Mission Accomplished Banner wrote:

You would have never seen Jordan carried off the floor because of a cramp. That was a man who tapped out. LeBron may be the best now, he may be great but he's far from the greatest.

Agree here. Certainly LeBron CANT be called GOAT until his career's over. Agree that he's the best now and the best since Kobe/Shaq. He might surpass them, but Jordan had 6 rings (could've EASILY had 8 if he didn't try his hand at baseball) and was UNDEFEATED in his Finals' appearances.

LeBron might one day get up there, but we can't tell after Game 2 of the 2014 NBA Finals.

GoldenMiles wrote:

but Jordan had 6 rings (could've EASILY had 8 if he didn't try his hand at baseball)

Satch Sanders DID have 8 titles.

Sanders > Jordan

The only people that say Jordan could've won 8 straight are people who don't pay attention to the NBA enough to know that Jordan came back for the end of the 94-95 season, had great stats in the 95 playoffs, and got beat by the Magic and Shaq.

Jordan would've never had more than 3 titles if the Bulls didn't acquire Dennis Rodman. It's all about surrounding your stars with capable players. Bill Russell wouldn't have won 11 without a supporting cast. Kareem and Magic wouldn't have won without each other.

GoldenMiles wrote:

Agree here. Certainly LeBron CANT be called GOAT until his career's over. Agree that he's the best now and the best since Kobe/Shaq. He might surpass them, but Jordan had 6 rings (could've EASILY had 8 if he didn't try his hand at baseball) and was UNDEFEATED in his Finals' appearances.

LeBron might one day get up there, but we can't tell after Game 2 of the 2014 NBA Finals.

Come on now. Lebron is certainly greater than Kobe and Shaq.

ososk wrote:

GoldenMiles wrote:

Agree here. Certainly LeBron CANT be called GOAT until his career's over. Agree that he's the best now and the best since Kobe/Shaq. He might surpass them, but Jordan had 6 rings (could've EASILY had 8 if he didn't try his hand at baseball) and was UNDEFEATED in his Finals' appearances.

LeBron might one day get up there, but we can't tell after Game 2 of the 2014 NBA Finals.

Come on now. Lebron is certainly greater than Kobe and Shaq.

That's hard to say honestly. Maybe more athletically gifted, but I'm not ready to say he's 100% better than Kobe, much less Shaq, the most dominant center since Wilt Chamberlain.

Are you talking about the most selfish player in the history of the NBA who bullied his way to jacking up 30 shots a game while shooting a very sub par % while only winning titles when Shaq was a teammate and the league orchestrated an all star center to go to LA for a bag of potatoes and a point guard to weasel out of a contract using a sick child?

Kobe Klanker=Dominique Wilkins

And you do remember the FIXED game don't you?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201006170LAL.html

GoldenMiles wrote:

That's hard to say honestly. Maybe more athletically gifted, but I'm not ready to say he's 100% better than Kobe, much less Shaq, the most dominant center since Wilt Chamberlain.

You're crazy if you're not 100% sure Lebron's better than Kobe. There is no question about that. Shaq is a completely different story. It is hard to compare dominant centers like Shaq, Wilt, Russell, to guys like Lebron, MJ, Bird, and Magic.

As it stands right now, Lebron is top three all time. Also just something interesting. The Bulls won 55 games without Michael Jordan. The Cavs won 19 games without Lebron. MJ is the only player who has gotten better since retiring. If Lebron closes out this series, which let us be honest, it will be Lebron who makes or breaks the Heat as we saw tonight, then he will be right on Jordan's heals. Lebron can definitely surpass Jordan.

and this game was fixed wrote:

Are you talking about the most selfish player in the history of the NBA who bullied his way to jacking up 30 shots a game while shooting a very sub par % while only winning titles when Shaq was a teammate and the league orchestrated an all star center to go to LA for a bag of potatoes and a point guard to weasel out of a contract using a sick child?

Kobe Klanker=Dominique Wilkins

And you do remember the FIXED game don't you?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201006170LAL.html

That's not fair. Kobe won without Shaq in LA for one (two?) seasons. HS also won at all, so he's not Dominique. But honestly, I didn't follow the NBA for a while, so what's up with the fixed games? Not saying you're wrong, but I just didn't know about the,m, although I'd heard something about points-shaving involving NBA refs.

Agree that Shaq is a greater player than Kobe, although they're both top 0 of all time probably (Shaq might be top ten). Is LeBron really considered to be greater than Shaq already? I'd definitely say no on that, but will admit I'm not an expert.

I agree with you that it's hard to compare dominant centers with players of any other position. The skills/athletic abilities are just so different.

Who's your top three, by the way?

Wilt, Jordan, LeBron are the best three of all-time statistically. You can argue over order but as far as advanced stats are concerned those three are the GOATs.

My top three are MJ, Lebron, Magic in that order. Top three centers are Russell, Shaq, Wilt in that order. As we agree, it is hard to compare the centers to the other guys, but even so I think all three of MJ, Lebron and Magic are better than any centers ever. Both Lebron and Magic have also shown an ability to play and defend the center position when necessary which I think really legitimizes both their games. The one thing I have to note about Shaq is that no player in NBA history has been fouled more than Shaq. During his peak, he was fouled literally every time he touched the ball, and less than 50 percent of those fouls were called. Shaq flies under the radar a lot of the time, but you mentioned you think he is top 10 all time and I agree completely. I've been a close follower of basketball since the late 70s and am primarily a Pistons fan.

GOCT - Greatest of current time

It's hard to overlook what appears to be heavy PED use on LeBron's part, though. Not really fair to compare him to Wilt, Jordan, Bird, Magic, and all those guys that were much cleanER.

It's like saying Bolt is so much better than Jesse Owens. You are comparing different universes.

Love that you've got Magic in your top 3. I don't know if he'd make mine or not, but I agree with you that it's insanely impressive that Magic and LeBron could defend all five positions. Hell, Magic could play ALL 5 positions (see his Finals MVP in 1980 [?], covering for Kareem in the center position when he was out of the game), which I'm not sure of LeBron ever has, although I'm sure he could.

I love Kareem, so I'm always happy that he has the all-time points record. Him and Magic was an INCREDIBLE pairing.

Agreed that Shaq doesn't get NEARLY enough credit for being one of the all-time greats. He was absurdly dominant, although I don't know all of the details of his stats, etc. I also feel that Tim Duncan isn't talked about enough. People focus on the flashy shooting guard/small forward positions, since they're probably the most athletically versatile of basketball positions (see MJ, Kobe, Kevin Durant, Paul George, Dwayne Wade, and LeBron).

I will grant you that you know a lot more about b-ball than me. I haven't followed closely for too long, much less since the '70s, but I always love to hear the opinions of those who are knowledgable!

running sucks, bball rules wrote:

GOCT - Greatest of current time

It's hard to overlook what appears to be heavy PED use on LeBron's part, though. Not really fair to compare him to Wilt, Jordan, Bird, Magic, and all those guys that were much cleanER.

It's like saying Bolt is so much better than Jesse Owens. You are comparing different universes.

Interesting. I've never heard LeBron (Lebron?) accused of PED use before. But I'm not a basketball expert. I do know he's bulked up muscularly a lot in recent seasons.

Tonight LeBron passed another MJ milestone. MJ had 2 career Finals games where he shot 60% or better from the field. This is the 3rd time LeBron has shot 60% or better from the field in the Finals.

MJ was LeBron is wrote:

Tonight LeBron passed another MJ milestone. MJ had 2 career Finals games where he shot 60% or better from the field. This is the 3rd time LeBron has shot 60% or better from the field in the Finals.

Impressive and did not know that. Still, Jordan 6 for 6 in Finals appearances is CRAZY. Also, Jordan's 37 PPG in 86-87 was crazy. Still, Wilt had 50 PPG one season. That really deserves more attention than it gets. And his 50-rebound game. Or was it more?

Wilt is the greatest center, most dominant player in NBA history, bar none. And I have been an NBA watcher since the early 70's.

Correct order, greatest centers

Chamberlain- no argument. cased closed.

Russell

Olajuwon

Shaq

Born in the 856 wrote:

Wilt is the greatest center, most dominant player in NBA history, bar none. And I have been an NBA watcher since the early 70's.

Correct order, greatest centers

Chamberlain- no argument. cased closed.

Russell

Olajuwon

Shaq

Olajuwon above Shaq?! Blasphemy!

Seriously, though, I'd like to hear your arguments. Can't really argue with the top two.

Actually, now that I think about it, Kareem definitely needs to be on that list. 6 MVPs! I believe that's the most ever.