Would anyone be interested in a high mileage - 100mpw- soph/junior year long case study? (70% way completed).

I'm really interested in this, but I am unable to help as I don't fit the requirements, running a 17 last year off 40 miles per week, and going into my junior year much stronger than I was then, with this summer going to average 75-85mpw.

I know typically more miles=faster times until you hit the cieling of breaking down to injuries or exhaustion, So I'm more interested in the athlete's ability to cope with the sudden stress of high mileage. Hopefully you can create an interesting study out of this, and I wish your brother luck.

Sounds interesting. I'd like to receive updates and see how it works out. How long has he been doing the 90 mpw? and has he raced recently? how did his times improve after the high mileage?

What were his track PR's for 1600 and 3200 this last season? That could be a decent predictor of his performance in XC and his potential to get faster, although it's a little early in his running career to put a limit on his improvement

HonestThief wrote:

I'm really interested in this, but I am unable to help as I don't fit the requirements, running a 17 last year off 40 miles per week, and going into my junior year much stronger than I was then, with this summer going to average 75-85mpw.

I know typically more miles=faster times until you hit the cieling of breaking down to injuries or exhaustion, So I'm more interested in the athlete's ability to cope with the sudden stress of high mileage. Hopefully you can create an interesting study out of this, and I wish your brother luck.

Thanks! So far he's done excellent in terms of progress. For 3-4 months his times didn't really drop, but then finally at the end of track season he got ~30 seconds off his 2-mile time and felt very happy at the end of the season.

few things to note:

His coach was impressed that a first year runner was recovering the fastest out of all the boys, including 2 16:30-50 guys (ALTHOUGH, they were both injured for at least 2 months with Achilles problems, so that must be noted).

He started running in Sept: 9/15

And by 11/4 (because his XC season was over)

He started his first 84.5 mile week less than 2 months after starting running, then the following weeks were (directly after 11/4):

91.5, 91, 90, 90, 80.5, 74...etc before cutting the mileage down for indoor track. He had no injuries during this 2 month period except his knee was sore. I had him ice it and bought him a strap, and it went away without ever being a real problem. I was happy that this was his only real problem and the bothersome of this soreness was only a 4-5 out of 10 in discomfort.

His Track season just ended, and now we are looking to get into the 100mpw's in 2-3 weeks or as soon as he wants to. and hold 100mpw for 3mo's until xc starts. There is a 8th grader who ran 17:30, so my brother is dying to train hard and beat this phenomenon.

Diet/sleep are very important, and this summer we will actually get the chance to space his doubles out from ~4 hours to ~8+hours, which will help tremendously.

HonestThief wrote:

What were his track PR's for 1600 and 3200 this last season? That could be a decent predictor of his performance in XC and his potential to get faster, although it's a little early in his running career to put a limit on his improvement

His track Pr's were the following:

He started out with 11:40 2-mile outdoors, and chopped it down to 10:31 at the last race (he didn't continue on because the qualifying time for the next meet was 10:10, which was the Class meet). He was considering doing a track meet where he wanted to get a 10:20, but decided against it so he could get a jump start on his mielage. He's very happy so far! I told him after his last 2-mile race, which was on Friday, that he had just ran 16:15 pace for 70% of a 5km. This gave him a nice boost of confidence and we decided to just end the season there rather than go looking for the uncertain open track meet where fast times may not be guaranteed where we live.

His mile pr has more or less stayed the same. It's kind of a weird event for him because he always ran the mile first, and then the two mile (he double'd) so being that it's his first year running, he was scared to go out too hard for the mile and then crash in the 2-mile.

I tried to tell him it's better to have one great time (in the mile), rather than 2 mediocre times, but he's a typical soph so he was a bit scared of looking bad in front of his team. HIs mile pr was around 5:20, and he dropped it down to 5:05. I imagine if he didn't have to double every single meet, it might have been around 4:50's.

It sounds like your brother is a work horse, so that is very good for him. Be sure to take advantage of the magic of soft trails vs concrete.

I'm sure you already know this, but he will hit a point where he can no longer improve from just mileage. He'll have to start speeding things up. If you aren't already doing so, I would throw in a 3-5 mile tempo once a week, and a 30 min fartlek once a week after two weeks of getting back into his mileage. Also, on other days, have him finish his runs with 6 x 100m strides to get his turn over a little quicker. So you could do Monday tempo and Thursday Fartlek or something similar. Once XC season is bout to start this fall, maybe start some date pace and goal pace intervals.

Your brother seems to be handling high mileage quite well, and will likely improve some more just based on the long easy miles, but if he really wants to see some jumps, throw in a little bit of fast stuff here and there. XC isn't a 50 miles race, only 3.1, so remember to get him quick.

Derrick2094 wrote:

HIs mile pr was around 5:20, and he dropped it down to 5:05. I imagine if he didn't have to double every single meet, it might have been around 4:50's.

Ok, so he has decent speed. That's good. I'm assuming you already know what I suggested to you then. He'll keep improving, hopefully he shatters his goals. Keep us updated

So my previous 2 posts are only showing the first 2-3 lines.

Can you break down a typical week for your brother right now or what he will do in the summer.

Example:

monday - X miles @ X pace

tuesday - Y workout

etc...

would like to see what he's running daily and how fast. also whatever workouts are planned.

i think this is excessive to reach "mediocre" times that other kids can achieve on 50 miles a week. but as long as your brother is enjoying it and not getting injured in any long term possible way, go for it and please keep updating.

im a first year college guy myself and have never cracked over 70 miles a week without injury which is frustrating. really ohping i can up my mileage successfully this usmmer.

Be sure to set some money aside for the MRI to diagnose his stress fracture or at a minimum for his physical therapist when his knee, hip flexor, or achilles has had enough. Seriously, jumping straight to 80+ miles/week, what are you thinking?

Derrick2094 wrote:

Few goals for Derrick JR:

-Go from 19:27 to 16:30 in less than a years time (time 75% way done)

-Eventually finish High School with a time of low-mid 15's or better.

-Aim to run consecutive months of 100-140mpw by end of senior year

-Be a State Champion.

.

This is flat out idiotic Derrick. Let me make myself clear in the most direct way possible - completely fuc\king idiotic. Take it from someone who actually has run significant mileage, even in high school.

At your age the goal should be consecutive weeks of 5 doubles per week. The mileage should be "whatever is comes to" NOT some pre-determined goal, especially the numbers you're suggesting. Consistent 75-95 mpw would be a lot for a high school kid. Jumping up to 115-140 for a week or two should be rare - very rare - and only for the experience. But you NEED to come back down. I am 100% unequivocally positive about that.

Running is like climbing a ladder. You climb it one rung at a time. You don't start out at the top of the ladder. You need to become successful at lower mileages before you make bumps up to insane numbers that you are suggesting.

goforitt wrote:

Can you break down a typical week for your brother right now or what he will do in the summer.

Example:

monday - X miles @ X pace

tuesday - Y workout

etc...

would like to see what he's running daily and how fast. also whatever workouts are planned.

i think this is excessive to reach "mediocre" times that other kids can achieve on 50 miles a week. but as long as your brother is enjoying it and not getting injured in any long term possible way, go for it and please keep updating.

im a first year college guy myself and have never cracked over 70 miles a week without injury which is frustrating. really ohping i can up my mileage successfully this usmmer.

Here's a normal month for him.

During the off-season, he does no workouts, but often runs faster the last portion of his normal 90min runs to teach his body to use FT fibers after using up all his ST ones during a race. He runs anywhere from 7:30 pace to 8:30 pace. I feel comfortable letting him do such slow pace especially because he's young and that's what I did in HS and got down to 9:20's/1:58/15:50's...etc using this slow pace high mileage. During Outdoor track, he has a typical Jack daniels coach who likes super low mileage (his coach wants him to do 45 minute runs on non-workout days!) so we have to adjust around this by throwing some doubles in. His workouts are much more normal than his mileage, i.e he'll do race pace 400's/800's/1km..etc but in XC/indoor season, the coach/my friend does all tempo based long term workouts. He started doing 90's mpw after only 7-8 weeks of ever running, and has had no injuries that have sidelined him partially due to sleeping well/eating healthy/making sure adequate time in btw his doubles...etc

When he gets to college, he will have a more fast paced normal training runs, but will still most likely do high mileage 140's-160's. This style is also done by my old coaches team and they all have great success running 24's 8km xc races. pretty happy with his progress, I know a lot of people will say, if you get up that mileage too high, then you won't have any place to go! To me, I look at Haile G and realize that when he was doing 85-90mpw when he was as young as 12, and he did INDEED have some place to go. Regardless of Haile G, we like the program we are doing now, and in fact I did the exact same style of training when I was in HS and was a state champion (although I didn't start until my junior year at least after xc season, so i'm looking for him to surpass me by a lot). It's because of this that I feel safe doing this type of program and he enjoys it.

Talking to gerry lindgren via facebook and reading this article (http://www.runnersworld.com/high-school-profiles/magic-maywood-park?page=single)as well as my own experiences were inspiration for this style of training.

I ran 140mpw in High school as well. I do understand. I had zero injuries and took care of my body. I understand your concern for the well being of my brother. In fact, I appreciate it!

"The mileage should be "whatever is comes to" NOT some pre-determined goal, especially the numbers you're suggesting."

I agree. That is why we just set the mileage as a general goal to hit, and if my brother feels like he's sore/tired/injury coming on, I ALWAYS encourage him to cut the mileage down and take it easy for the rest of the week.

"Consistent 75-95 mpw would be a lot for a high school kid."

I agree! That's why he's stayed at 60-91 mpw for the last 9 months. He's well rested, excellent diet, spaces his doubles 8 hours a part, runs a lot on grass, and we've been carefully watching his body for any sign of injury. He did 3 months of 90mpw without any adverse effects!

"Jumping up to 115-140 for a week or two should be rare - very rare - and only for the experience. But you NEED to come back down. I am 100% unequivocally positive about that."

Again, we agree. I did 140mpw for 3 months after the summer of my HS year and, boy!, was it a lot of work. I was fine though and felt great after I recovered. However, He won't be touching 140mpw until post-high school most likely. Sure he may dabble into 115's the summer before his senior year, but he's doing what mileage he feels he can.

I SHOULD mention, that he runs at 8:30 pace, and at fastest, 7:45 pace typically. Thank you for the concern though, your post will influence and help me later in his HS career. However, we will continue for now and listen to his body, as that's the best way to determine what an athlete can and cannot do.

WTF?

Seriously, Derrick, your friend needs a coach, not a sadomasochist. You've got him running 90 minutes every day SLOWER than SLOW? You're killing him before he gets a chance.

Wake up, man!

Be sure to budget wrote:

Be sure to set some money aside for the MRI to diagnose his stress fracture or at a minimum for his physical therapist when his knee, hip flexor, or achilles has had enough. Seriously, jumping straight to 80+ miles/week, what are you thinking?

He did in fact spend 8 weeks building up to 80mpw, via 60's, 65's, 70's...etc (in-season), but I agree that it could be dangerous to make the jump so quickly! Luckily I made sure he listened to his body. And while everyone else on his team got injured in the Winter, in fact, he was the ONLY one to not get injured and is doing great atm. High schoolers recover much faster than normal 20's/30's adults, but a stress fracture is something to consider! It's ironic that that is what you mentioned however, because when he was doing 90's, his friend was doing 60's and he got a stress fracture that put him out for 4-6 weeks. Safe mileage is the way to go though.

Derrick20944 wrote:

"Consistent 75-95 mpw would be a lot for a high school kid."

I agree! That's why he's stayed at 60-91 mpw for the last 9 months. He's well rested, excellent diet, spaces his doubles 8 hours a part, runs a lot on grass, and we've been carefully watching his body for any sign of injury. He did 3 months of 90mpw without any adverse effects!

Yes, he could have probably made it from Mariveles, Bataan, to San Fernando, Pampanga, alive, but that doesn't mean it's good for him.

You're killing the kid. Break it down to smaller pieces. When he gets faster you can extend the runs. 90 minute runs every day is nuts.

malmo wrote:

http://postimg.org/image/q5s1cumlv

WTF?

Seriously, Derrick, your friend needs a coach, not a sadomasochist. You've got him running 90 minutes every day SLOWER than SLOW? You're killing him before he gets a chance.

Wake up, man!

.... -_-"

I ran 8:30 pace in HS, as did everyone on our team, and we ended up missing nationals barely, having a state champ in the 800m, and 3 guys running low 9:20's :x

Two of my former teammates who ran 8:30 pace in high school went on to run 14:35-14:41 respectively and are running mid-low 24's for the 8km. I myself ran 4:18 off the same training and performed very well. Obviously others have run much much faster times, but I feel 4:17/9:20's are solid times. I think some people may be over-reacting to this thread because they are use to the decades old training style 40-50mpw @ 6:30 pace. I tried that for 2 years. I pref slow long mileage, and since he's my brother, he probably has the same genes as me.

Please don't put Steve Magness name in with the likes of Kellogg, Lydiard, and Daniels.

They are proven coaches, Steve failed as a runner in College and is not a proven coach yet!!!