Yes
I see a lot of similarities between Lance and Landis as they both cheated and then they ratted people out.
But you asked about differences. They are still different.
You are correct rekrunner, they are still different.
They do have some things in common though (cheating, lying, and then ratting people out).
Maybe I misunderstood the words in the subject line. It's hard to see differences if you are looking for similarities.
They had some things in common before: they are both men; they are both Americans; they both rode bikes; they both have hair, teeth, two legs and two arms. They both have mothers. They both have ex-wives. The commonalities seem endless. Were they really any different to start with? You can't tell by looking at what they have in common.
Or can you?
Cheating:
- Lance decided to cheat, under great pressure from Lance, in order to help Lance's career
- Landis decided to cheat, under great pressure from Lance, in order to help Lance's career
Lying:
- Lance lied, under great pressure from Lance
- Landis lied, under great pressure from Lance
Ratting people out:
- Landis started telling the truth, under great pressure from Landis
- Lance started telling the truth, under great pressure from Landis
Wow! Exactly the same! Only different.
- Lance made the decision for Landis to cheat before Landis did.
- Lance only started telling the truth after being compelled under penalty of perjury.
But the cheating and the lying is really only a small part of Lance's story. It's not even the most interesting. After all, who is still interested in the "second best" cheater, Jan Ulrich?
No, what separates Lance from everyone else in every sport is the bullying and lawsuits, and all the collateral damage of innocent (and also the guilty) and often powerless (but sometimes powerful) people who threatened to expose the truth, or refused to lie for him, or even just dared to pose a question:
- Publicly destroying former friendships and reputations when friends refused to lie for him
- Suing a former masseuse for one million pounds for defamation, for telling the truth from direct personal knowledge
- Suing a former bike mechanic (after breaching their contract), and forcing him and his family to restart their life half-way around the world, hoping it was far enough out of Lance's reach
But it didn't stop at helpless former friends, teammates, and employees:
- Lance destroyed the legacy of a former American hero, and his bike brand worth an estimated 30 million dollars (Trek's estimate), simply for expressing some doubts
- Lance sued the Sunday Times under draconian British libel laws for writing a truthful editorial and a book review
- Lance blocked the book "LA Confidential" from being published in English
- Lance used his charisma to get French president Sarkozy (a big fan) to cut funding for the French doping labs
- Lance even attempted to use influence with Congress to undermine USADA's ability to pursue anti-doping efforts
- The list of victims of Lance goes on and on and on: former cyclists like Bassons and Simeoni, and investigative journalists like Walsh and Kimmage
- And then there is the cancer and the cancer community. Lance used his cancer as both a shield and a sword to extend his reputation and legacy.
Landis didn't ever do anything that compares to that. No one did. Not in cycling, nor any other sport.
So if the question is, "is Lance any different from Landis now", the answer is still "yes", even now.
Read "cycle of lies". It will really help you put this question into perspective .
OK, rekrunner, I understand where you are coming from. I think I was not clear in my first post. I agree with you. The link for that article in the original post shows that now Lance is now "ratting people out"---something Landis was totally criticized for.
You think Landis only drugged and lied under great pressure from Lance? What about all the rest of the peloton that is doped to the gills and covers it up. That's not due to Lance.
Bottom line.
Lance and Landis doped.
Lance and Landis covered it up and lied.
Lance and Landis only started talking when they were exposed as cheats.
Greg wrote:
I see a lot of similarities between Lance and Landis as they both cheated and then they ratted people out.
WtF? Lance didn't crack for nothing. He was tarred and feathered, raked over the coals, beaten, hogtied, ridiculed and left on a deserted island with nothing. THEN he turned on people. Bond's stooge is the only person ever to hold out LONGER than Lance. Give the guy some credit if you ask me.
You make it sound like he turned on people without a thought.
I'm still puzzled where you are coming from. "Ratting people out" in this context, is a good thing. It's morally equivalent to telling the truth. Landis was a part of the problem for many years, until he started "ratting people out". He had to lose everything first, but then he was the first one to finally say enough is enough.So many of these posts pretend Lance's "only" crime was simply cheating and then lying about cheating. They pretend he's no different than Marion Jones. Marion Jones wasn't a pusher. She didn't force teammates to dope to further her own career and legacy. Marion Jones wasn't an active "enforcer" of a sport wide omerta. And she went to jail. Lance was much worse, and deserves no less, than Marion Jones.The road to redemption for Lance is much longer than Landis, because the length is proportional to the number of people he hurt, and the depth of the pain he inflicted. Ratting out Bruyneel and Ferrari is one thing, if they are convicted because of it, but they are already banned.The link you provided says that Tom Weisel knew about the doping, based on Lance's "information and belief". It's not a very strong accusation, and I don't think anyone cares about Weisel's role, unless he was some kind of ringleader. Weisel is not currently any kind of defendant in any proceeding.For Lance to redeem himself, he has to tell us what we don't already know. Talk about the UCI or Hein Verbruggen's knowledge. Information pre-1995 would also be interesting. Did Chris Carmichael play a major role in Lance's path to the darkside? Was Lance already cheating as a junior, before his first World Championship?
Greg wrote:
OK, rekrunner, I understand where you are coming from. I think I was not clear in my first post. I agree with you. The link for that article in the original post shows that now Lance is now "ratting people out"---something Landis was totally criticized for.
The problem with bottom lines is they often hide important details. It's a narrow and simple minded view of the big picture. They look at results, but not causes. Bottom lines are good for executives who like to make decisions based on their guts, without having to use their brains.But let's backup. First and foremost, I want to re-emphasise that cheating and lying are the "smallest" issues that surround Lance. If it were only this, he could have disappeared quietly like Jan Ulrich, without much scandal and fanfare. I say this just to point out that you've ignored the mountains and chose to debate about molehills.Here's a better bottom line: In order to redeem himself, he has to make many people whole: Betsy Andreu, Mike Anderson, Greg Lemond, David Walsh, Paul Kimmage, Emma O'Reilly, Christophe Bassons, Filippo Simeoni, etc., etc., etc. There is no such laundry list of collateral damage for Landis.But basically you got it right. I think Lance is completely 100% responsible for Landis (and every member of his team) doping, and indeed, in large part, the whole peloton, post-1998 Festina scandal. Lance decided that Landis should dope before Landis did. Think about that for a while, because that is a fact that is not under dispute. And post-Festina, the peloton was prepared for redemption, but only if it was unanimous. Like a Texan from the wild west, Lance returned from cancer with both guns blazing, and double handedly delayed any redemption for the next 7 years.If we want to be honest, let's imagine hypothetically, like George Bailey, a scenario of what happens if Lance never physically recovers from cancer:- Landis does not dope (nor lie about it after getting caught). Maybe there isn't even a US team in the Tour de France, because the US didn't really care that much before Lance.- Without Lance, post-Festina scandal, the peloton doesn't "high octane" dope. They lay low for a few years, and the Tour continues with the relative obscurity it enjoyed before 1997.- No former friend, teammate, opponent, American hero, journalist, scientist, etc., suffers extensive damage to their livelihood, or reputation.
simple answer wrote:
You think Landis only drugged and lied under great pressure from Lance? What about all the rest of the peloton that is doped to the gills and covers it up. That's not due to Lance.
Bottom line.
Lance and Landis doped.
Lance and Landis covered it up and lied.
Lance and Landis only started talking when they were exposed as cheats.
And don't confuse being compelled to answer questions in a federal investigation, with a personal initiative to come clean.In a post "Marion Jones" era, lying to federal investigators means going to jail. (That fact is probably why so many teammates confessed).Landis did not have that pressure of coming forward with the truth under penalty of perjury and federal obstruction of justice. The context and motivation to "rat people out", and the consequence for getting it wrong, were completely different.
Greg wrote:
OK, rekrunner, I understand where you are coming from. I think I was not clear in my first post. I agree with you. The link for that article in the original post shows that now Lance is now "ratting people out"---something Landis was totally criticized for.
simple answer wrote:
You think Landis only drugged and lied under great pressure from Lance? What about all the rest of the peloton that is doped to the gills and covers it up. That's not due to Lance.
Bottom line.
Lance and Landis doped.
Lance and Landis covered it up and lied.
Lance and Landis only started talking when they were exposed as cheats.
Lance is a step above...he actively sought to destroy those who went up against him. I cannot recall Landis going to those extremes.
Bottom line.
Lance has one ball.
Landis has two.