Ideal splits for 800 or 1500 ?

The ideal pace is always as close to even as possible. If you pick the ideal pace, by the end you should be sprinting at 100% effort to maintain the pace you started at, which at the time was easy. I don't think the flying start means much at anything longer that 400m.

you are ignoring flying component entering 2nd lap

you can't ignore 1s of flying

the ideal pace for the world record is not +2 second positive split.

guys just can't maintain the last 200 m and that is where of the bulk of the slowdown occurs.

the guy that "makes it all way" will be the guy that sets the out of sight record.

same as in the 400. there is a lot of time to grab if you could somehow break 11 seconds that last 100.

As a former 1500 runner, I have come to the conclusion that the 800m is dominated by people who don't train for it or race it in an ideal way.

As you pointed out, the second lap of an 800m is considerable slower, especially factoring the flying start. In a 15, even splitting always brings the best results, but it is a difficult thing to do, psychologically, especially on the third lap. Possibly, the middle third, or third quarter of an 800 has the same effect on pacing.

To run one's best, my coach would always say, you want to run it as if you wouldn't be able to take another step after the line, so maintaining speed is the difficult part, in other words, it is a question of endurance.

I personally think that the ultimate 800m runner is more of a Seb Coe or Steve Cram, as opposed to a Rudisha or Cruz. I imagine

Steve Cram makes my point by himself, since he struggled to break 50 in the quarter, had awful form, but still raced his way under 1:43. If you had a true 1500 man who somehow had 46 high/47 speed, I think that person might actually have the ability to even split 50s. Jim Ryun would have likely been the fastest man ever at 800, I believe. I think you can extrapolate this somewhat to explain why Mo was able to run a 3:28 15, although it isn't quite the same.

factoring in ideal wabbiting at 150m break to bell at ~ 1s/lap for drafting, you need to factor in ~ 0.625s into splits -> "perfect" wabbited splits for 800 are a

1.625s

between laps ->

1'45.00 = 51.6875 / 53.3125

1'44.00 = 51.1875 / 52.8125

1'43.00 = 50.6875 / 52.3125

1'42.00 = 50.1875 / 51.8125

1'41.00 = 49.6875 / 51.3125

1'40.00 = 49.1875 / 50.8125

bottom line :

don't run

50-flat

wabbited to bell from 150 in unless you think you are

1'41.625 !!!

i'm pretty happy with above

it's pretty simple application of logic/maths & "explains" the 1-high splits needed to run your 800pb

not sure how i coudn't work it out 5+y ago, but i've had a free supply of "proper" prescription multivitamin capsules last 6/12 & taking 1/day & i do believe they have made me "smarter", "concentrate better/longer"

i used to think guys who took vitamin supplements were morons, but now, i do believe in them

you will get better "brain" taking a "proper" multivatimin capsule/day

( it comes as a small black capsule )

might be B vitamins included ?

anyhows, asides, let's look at a 3'30...

3'30 = 56 pace

the flying component entering into a lap unlikely 1s as with 800

perhaps approaching long relay

call it 0.8s

so, for a solo 3'30 ->

55.20 / 56.29s...

=

55.20 / 1'51.49 / 2'33.71 / 2'47.78 / 3'30.00

adding in drafting at 1s/lap from gun to bell in circuit race will need some serious adjustment, especially as it will indicate a very interesting last lap

someone do this basic calculation as i've put in a big effort already

thank you

ventolin^3 wrote:

so, for a solo 800, ideal splits differ by 1.0s ->

1'44.00 = 51.50 / 52.50

1'43.00 = 51.00 / 52.00

1'42.00 = 50.50/ 51.50

1'41.00 = 50.00 / 51.00

1'40.00 = 49.50 / 50.50

some adjustments to follow for the "standard" wabbit from 150 - 400 at "accepted" 1s/lap for drafting...

I'm confused. Shouldn't the second lap be faster than the first since you go into it "flying" whereas the first lap is from a standing start?

For example, shouldn't the 1'44.00 = 52.5 / 51.5 rather than the reverse which you listed above?

this needs some algebra, which i don't have pen'n'paper to do right now

those above solo 3'30 splits reduced by 1s/lap to bell ->

54.20 / 1'49.49 / 2'30.9575 / 2'44.78 / 3'26.2475

we need to "big up" the final time above to 3'30 & keep gap between mid laps at 55.29 ->

55.56 / 1'50.85 / 2'32.32 / 3'30.00

if my raw arithmetic is right, the last lap in a "perfect" paced 1500 to bell for a 3'30.00 shoud only have a finish of

~ 57.7

( i'll have to check later when i can get some pen'n'paper but you maybe shoudn't have much speed on last lap of a 3'30 ?!...)

reader of the forums wrote:I'm confused. Shouldn't the second lap be faster than the first since you go into it "flying" whereas the first lap is from a standing start?

For example, shouldn't the 1'44.00 = 52.5 / 51.5 rather than the reverse which you listed above?

you are onto answer

that's why i said it's damn tricky "logic" problem !

if a guy runs 1'40 off 50.0/50.0 then i was claiming his 2nd lap was an open 51.0, but he got benefit of 1s flying -> 50.0 actual

so his "intrinsic" laps were

50.0 / 51.0

which result in "actual"

1'40.0

we have to find the algebra which "adjusts" 50 & 51 but keeps the 1'40.0 as target but still keeps 1s gap between laps

longjack wrote:

there is a lot of time to grab if you could somehow break 11 seconds that last 100.

no sh*t. the thing is they can't.

this thread is dumb, there is no ultimate "ideal pace", it all depends on the runners specific strengths and weaknesses.

the idea of an even split 800 record is even more dumb.

i maya got it correct in my OP

some hard, tough logicians kindly examine topic please

no drivel/moron

extra please

ventolin^3 wrote:

that's why i said it's damn tricky "logic" problem !

if a guy runs 1'40 off 50.0/50.0 then i was claiming his 2nd lap was an open 51.0, but he got benefit of 1s flying -> 50.0 actual

so his "intrinsic" laps were

50.0 / 51.0

which result in "actual"

1'40.0

we have to find the algebra which "adjusts" 50 & 51 but keeps the 1'40.0 as target but still keeps 1s gap between laps

Ha, I totally overlooked your point. I still hold my idea that the 800 should be approached with the attempt to "even split," but your post makes me think that a 1:39 is really not out of the realm of possibility- but it would be very difficult for a 400-oriented 800m runner, as opposed to a 1500 runner with near-400 speed. My pick for the first man under 1:40 (if Rudisha doesn't do it) is someone who runs "even splits" of 50 and 49. Nijel Amos, from what I have heard, is training Lydiard-esquely, and we know he has 46 second speed. If he can get things together, I think Rudisha has reason to be worried.

ventolin^3 wrote:that's why i said it's damn tricky "logic" problem !

i figured out the "logic"

the problem is we are

fixated on the 400 split

be it 49, 50, 51, 52...

the key is that we need to

focus on the final 800 time

be it 1'40, 1'41, 1'42, 1'43...

fuuck any pre-conceptions of the 400 split

work out the "even" splits for the 800 & the 400 split is the consequence :

800 man beats 400 donkey

we can't get off the eternal WRONG focus of

400 donkey beats 800 man ???!!!...

The ideal 800 split is different for different people.

no

anyone who runs

~ 1.7s

differential has run an "ideal" 800

that is nonsense

in a "tactical" race where he had no interest in times, he ran 1'42.88 running ~ 6m extra on bends !!!

he was worth at worst

1'42.12

that day for extra distance & if it hadn't been a pathetic 50-high+ at bell from cruz, cram shouda run at worst in his ideal race :

1'42-flat

& he was not peak shape that day

that was incredible oslo mile day of 3'46+

right'n'wrong

Ryun at his '67 peak, maybe dusseldorf ( we await some more splits ) probably couda run on a '70s synthetic off his 1500 training of

~ 1'39.9

mo ran 3'28+ as i did suggest possible prior

( but i freely admit i didn't plump for 3'28 - i'd have been hounded of this board if i had gone with his theoretical 3'28 !!! ), but he'd shown incredible speed for a 5k/10k guy with that 50.8 finish in a 14+ run

that is 3'28 potential if you have some serious < < 27 simultaneously

Andros wrote:Ha, I totally overlooked your point. I still hold my idea that the 800 should be approached with the attempt to "even split,"

"even split"

is not what you think it is

it is ~ 1.7s differential assuming pacing from 150 - 400

but your post makes me think that...

this kinda speculation wasn't the point of exercise

as for now, you/coach etc shoud aim for

~ 1.7s

splits

( & believe me, i was hoping for a different answer, but a big +ve split of < 2s is correct modus operandi )

ventolin^3 wrote:reading that sportscientists guy's take on M ( surprisingly good for him ! ), reminded me of his epic : the ideal 800 splits, which was an amalagam of some poor conclusions based only on 800wr splits rather than some serious logic application ( someone kindly link it )

found it eventually

then go to :

3) The pacing – a pattern in the 800m

One final point about the race, and it relates to a peculiar pacing pattern that you see when you look at the best ever performances in the 800m event. Part of my PhD looked at the pacing strategies used in all the world records from 800m to 10,000m, and there’s a pretty constant pattern in long-distance races [1]. The 800m race is different, however, and is paced differently from other middle- or long-distance races

they give you a phd off some of this :

hmmm...

i wished i asked for any phd funding 20y+ before, for this kinda stuff

the prospect of being "shot at dawn" for insulting funding committee clearly didn't exist back then...

The ideal splits are 49.28/51.60