Um, exactly whose dream is he screwing up? A person who perspective on the importance of such a position is so out of whack that they scribe such a rant?
Um, exactly whose dream is he screwing up? A person who perspective on the importance of such a position is so out of whack that they scribe such a rant?
2014 NCAA Results wrote:
Looking over results from this past year....
Pat Henner - what did he do while he was at JMU? He got a lot better "coaching" when he got to G-town (and please don't tell me they should be better)
Paul Spangler - What did he do at VMI? Lot better once he started coaching Cory McGee
Tony Houchin - UAB has a lot more invested then UNLV?
Khadavis Robinson - What did he do an UNLV?
Dan Steele- Maybe a backwards move, but he seems to be much more successful at Oregon then he is at Northern Iowa?
Steve Keith - He is dominating at Vandy...at Alabama, not so much, UTEP he was successful on international legs.
It's funny, because this argument could go either way. You've posed it something like: "great coaches in bad situations aren't going to get results, but when they go to great situations their coaching ability shines."
It could just as easily be that they are pretty crappy coaches, who only look good when they have the name, facilities, scholarships and resources to get really fast runners to coach. Or to rephrase, "crappy to mediocre coaches look really good when they are in great coaching situations."
Doesn't having success in a bad situation (success being improving the program dramatically, not necessarily going to nationals or coaching national champions), indicate far more about a coaches ability than being in a really great situation and having success?
You mention Steve Keith at Vandy. If you are a great coach, how would you not have success at Alabama? It is an SEC school, one of the top in the nation. At Vandy he gets one of the most valuable school names, invests tons of money mostly in just distance women and he is SEC still. I'm not saying he's a bad coach, but it seems that if he was a great coach he would have had success at Alabama. And to be honest, with the recruits they get every single year and all the advantages and investment they have in the women's distance program there, why aren't they winning National Championships? Or at least finishing top-5 every year?
Ultimately the best indicator of coaching ability is, on average how fast are the runners coming in vs. how fast are they while there. Improvement is the ultimate test of coaching ability. And not just one or two athletes, but how are most of the athletes a coach is coaching doing.
A lot of the big programs have "great" coaches because they win. But if you look at what they are doing, they are getting top level athletes out of high school, destroying a good percentage of them, having a few survive and run fast because they are talented, even if they don't really improve, and people say they are great coaches.
Find the coaches that improve most of their athletes and you will know who is actually a great coach. Find the coaches that have improved their programs the most from where they were when they got there, and who have the highest PR rates, and the highest amount of PR per athlete, and you will know who the best of the best really are, regardless of the school name.
Out of the Game Too! wrote:
Please don't try to say that these schools can count their athletic achievements as prestige because we both know that's not what you were talking about.
This is an athletic forum so athletic prestige was a LARGE part of what I was talking about. Why wouldn't you think that?
Eric Heins did very little at Southeast Missouri, a bit better at TCU, and now is thriving at NAU. I completely agree that your situation makes a huge difference. Scholarship budget, administrative support, shoe sponsorship, brand recognition of the institution, training environment. Notre Dame / SIU is hardly an apples to apples comparison.
Fluffy Bruin wrote:
Ultimately the best indicator of coaching ability is, on average how fast are the runners coming in vs. how fast are they while there. Improvement is the ultimate test of coaching ability. And not just one or two athletes, but how are most of the athletes a coach is coaching doing.
This isn't the job though in D1. The description of successful "coach" at a major college is... can you recruit talent and win with it? At a major school you won't keep your job by adding up personal bests. You keep your job by winning. Coaches who judge themselves first on improvement and winning second rarely win. Know the job, this isn't summer kids track club.
Athletic Director wrote:
Fluffy Bruin wrote:Ultimately the best indicator of coaching ability is, on average how fast are the runners coming in vs. how fast are they while there. Improvement is the ultimate test of coaching ability. And not just one or two athletes, but how are most of the athletes a coach is coaching doing.
This isn't the job though in D1. The description of successful "coach" at a major college is... can you recruit talent and win with it? At a major school you won't keep your job by adding up personal bests. You keep your job by winning. Coaches who judge themselves first on improvement and winning second rarely win. Know the job, this isn't summer kids track club.
Uh, you are mixing things up a bit. The subject is regarding how to judge great coaches, specifically to determine who should get the next opportunities at the best programs.
If you can win and dramatically improve kids at a smaller school with less resources, why wouldn't you be better at the best schools with the most resources?
Meaning, better than most of the "successful coaches currently at a major", who may not be very good coaches, just fortunate to have been hired into the best situations.
Determining who the best coaches actually are, at any level, is significant in determining who is most likely to win the most at the best schools.
What would you consider a reasonable rate of improvement from HS to end of College times...5%, 10%, 15%? Dropping from 4:16/1600 in HS to 3:45/1500 in College equals just over 6% improvement. Is that a percentage that would put someone in the "good" coach category?
All things are not equal when it comes to comparing jobs.
A lot goes into recruiting. For one, the director allocates scholarships and that often means one event area is loaded and another gets little or no scholarship. Title IX also figures in, so some men's programs at schools with no football programs have very few scholarships compared to the fully funded women's programs.
So a coach may look relatively unsuccessful at a program where recruiting is with admits and books, but zero scholarship dollars. Add high admission standards and their "coaching ability" doesn't look so hot.
Show me coaches who have success with walk-ons - they are the real coaches, IMO.
Programs are attractive to coaches when they are fully funded, are at a college with medium entrance requirements and low tuition rates for walk ons, and still have a good academic reputation. You can build a deep program at a college like this.
Fluffy Bruin wrote:
Uh, you are mixing things up a bit. The subject is regarding how to judge great coaches, specifically to determine who should get the next opportunities at the best programs.
If you can win and dramatically improve kids at a smaller school with less resources, why wouldn't you be better at the best schools with the most resources?
Meaning, better than most of the "successful coaches currently at a major", who may not be very good coaches, just fortunate to have been hired into the best situations.
Determining who the best coaches actually are, at any level, is significant in determining who is most likely to win the most at the best schools.
You said "if you can win...". That's the main point I made. If you "dramatically improve kids" but don't "win" then you aren't doing your job in the athletic directors eyes.
If you are at typical mid-major and you take five 9:45 3200m boys to 8:35 3K (6% improvement) over four years you still don't win cross country at your conference level. You may be coaching well but you'll be middle of your conference and never win. Therefore you won't get a big job. On the other hand if you take five 9:20 3200m boys and coach them to 8:23 (4% improvement) over four years you've done a lesser "coaching" job but you'll likely win your cross country conference. Then you'll get a big job. (DISCLAIMER FOR GENERALIZATION)
At the end of the day a winning coach regardless of development usually trumps in the job process a coach who improves kids and loses. I'm not saying this is right, it's just true. Partially because part of the job is recruiting. If you can coach well but don't get talent it tells the next employer you can't recruit. It may be because of the school you're at but you can't prove it.
Who's up for the Georgia position?
Johnny Bomar - Head Coach at Wofford is the front runner as he has a great connection in the Cayman Islands and Bahamas
What's going on at Florida A&M? Do they have someone already?
Author: Different View
Subject: RE: 2014 College Track and Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion
Message:
mother may I? wrote:
Author: Common Sensei
Subject: RE: 2014 College Track and Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion
Message:
Looks like Notre Dame pulled Alan Turner back away from the Ole Miss job he had supposed taken.
http://www.und.com/sports/c-track/spec-rel/071814aac.html
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does anyone dare take the job at ole miss?
What is wrong with the ole miss job?
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The head coach?
Author: 2014 NCAA Results
Subject: RE: 2014 College Track and Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion
Message:
Looking over results from this past year....
Pat Henner - what did he do while he was at JMU? He got a lot better "coaching" when he got to G-town (and please don't tell me they should be better)
Paul Spangler - What did he do at VMI? Lot better once he started coaching Cory McGee
Tony Houchin - UAB has a lot more invested then UNLV?
Khadavis Robinson - What did he do an UNLV?
Dan Steele- Maybe a backwards move, but he seems to be much more successful at Oregon then he is at Northern Iowa?
Steve Keith - He is dominating at Vandy...at Alabama, not so much, UTEP he was successful on international legs.
Brian O'Neal claimed HE coached Cory McGee at Florida.
He can't coach. He messed me and the other guys up last year. He wanted to fight with everyone of his athletes on the track. He needs to spend more time learning and coaching than lifting arms and chest. That is why the best sprinter Tennessee had in 2 years is heading West.
You guys need to quit throwing out random opinions about coaches when you really have no personal experience with that coach and have no idea of his/her situation.
Matt Sparks is a coach who has had the opportunity to move on to much more prestigious jobs on several occasions. Do any of you actually realize coaches have human feelings just like you and I??? Maybe he didn't feel the timing was right to uproot his family? Maybe his wife has a job she really likes in Carbondale? Maybe he enjoys the stability and support he gets at SIU? Why is that so difficult to understand?
Sparks guided several national caliber cross country teams with guys that were running at an all-american level that were strongly overlooked coming out of high school. Jeff Schirmer was what, a 9:20 and 4:15 guy in HS? Multiple time all-american at SIU!
We have seen time and again that he has taken a 15:30/9:40 kind of guy in HS and developed them into sub 25:00 8k. Those are the guys he recruits because he doesn't have scholarship money to throw around...and at the same time has an eye for that hidden gem in Illinois that will turn into a big time college runner.
My point is, if you don't understand the situation, don't get on here and rant and bash someone. There are plenty of fantastic coaches out there that see great improvements with many of their athletes but outsiders like some people on this board just look at school records and all-american totals. God forbid a coach stays at a mid-major...
I was surprised when Isaiah Moore signed with UT. I wondered if the pitch was, "Come run where Aries Merritt did"-of course under Vince Anderson.
do your homework. Pat Henner was incredibly successful at JMU... including an Olympian...
Read running with the buffaloes...in a year wear Colorado won the NCAA Championship JMU was considered a threat with Ben Cooke...
any word on the army and air force jobs?