Wang Junxia - Was she on peds or was she on PEDs???

Nutella1 wrote:Kratochvílová is basically a man. Not sure if by birth like Semenya or through massive injection of drugs

if kratoch was a man, she was helluva a runt

go look up her height

Anyway, probably best to discard her performance

then are we to discard pamela's/quirot's/olizarenko's/mineyeva's/kazankina's performances which are all pretty close to wang's ???

As for Qu, as she was from the same training group, I would also not compare this performance either.

eh ?

no one talks about qu's wr in same tones as wang's 3k

genze coud go 3'50/3'51 this year if she re-finds her indoor form & gets "perfect" race

what excuse you going to come up with then ???

dkny64, I agree with you. I would only point out that her 2:17:42 women's only record is more legit for records purposes given that none of the other records are run alongside or in a pack with men.

2:17:42 -> 2:03:55

the 400m women's record is obviously pretty far out there as well.

re: ventolin^3, my initial post talking about Wang's 8:06 was considering HER best times, which I feel the 3000m is far and away the best. i don't know what she ran for the 800m.

that math seems wrong... I'd say it's more like:

1:50.40 ~ 3:47.26 ~ 8:06.11 ~ 14:09.43 ~ 29:11.40

dkny64 wrote:Less sophisticated approach - I'm sure Vent will have many objections - compare the women's WRs to the men's.

... Thoughts? [Beyond Ventolin explaining how stupid I am.]

nice anlysis but a little outdated

i used to try ~ 9% ( 0.917 factor ) for sprints which gives times long way off men's wrs but starts drifting much more at 800 -> up

( 10.49 ->9.45

21.34 ->19.57

47.60 ->43.66

1'53.28 ->1'43.92

3'50.46 ->3'31.43

29'31.78 ->27'05.48

2"15'25 ->2"04'14

however some caveats :

- as distance increases, the effect of stength ( testosterone dependent - women sprinters have to have high natural testo to get that muscle/power ) decreases meaning that 1.1 as to be reduce fractionally more with increasing distance, so above have to be little quicker progressively

- paula's M had pacing gun-to-tape & a reported following wind

many consider that a 2"17+ -> imo :

2"05'41

( but imo somewhat nearer 2"05-flat/low with more endurance, less testo dependent )

women's endurance is awesome

they just don't train/ability ( likely latter is much more pertinent ) to tack on speed

it's like those japanese 2"07/2"08 guys who can't crack 28

awesome endurance but no speed training/ability

ONCE again womens records in longer distances are weak

as it reflects the fact that they are women .

AND paula and wang's record's are very much to do

with fact that epo will not take womens hct up high enough compared to men and blood doping is nessary

or more so a combination of both that on race day and epo

for training .

WHY Chinese were never willing to mess with blood transfusions outside of very controlled environment

like in own country explains why only ran times there.

.and the number of fast times ran .

and clearly not many other female athletes benefited

from this , nor of wang or paula's standard.

Crazy Huge Base + Drugs wrote:re: ventolin^3, my initial post talking about Wang's 8:06 was considering HER best times, which I feel the 3000m is far and away the best. i don't know what she ran for the 800m.

her line of fit is :

55.5 / 1'57.1 ->

3'50.0

5'13.0

8'02.8

13'52.7

29'01.6

canova confirmed long after i posted above that a chinese gal who was cognescent of wang, that

Wang Jungxia ran 3'51"9 in 1500m and 2:24 in Marathon, and 8'06" in 3000, and 29'30" with the second half in 14'26", and NEVER could run 400m faster than 55"5 (this was what Dong Li, the WCh in 1500 in 1997, now wife of the head coach of Spain Miguel Landa, explained me when we spoke about the Chinese period of Ma Juren)

remember that in '93 domestic champs the 1500 went off at a wild 300m, the 3k was just a tempo run to 2k

( 5'29.65 = 8'14.47

pace )

the 10k was jogging to 5k with 15'05 then speeding up to an 8'17 finish !!!

Actually, it is possible that the wind reading was correct. She beat a field that included several sub 11 athletes by about 10 meters. For example Gail Deevers, who ran 10.82 into a head wind on 3 separate occasions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkpTsAmv8XQ

One thing to note is that reaction time is the same for men and women, so the correct calculation is

(10.49 - 0.2) x 0.9 + 0.2 = 9.46 not 9.44 (still a far cry from the mens record, but lets get the math correct)

Wrong! Do more research! At the world championships in 1993, Liu Dong closed the 1500 with a 1:57 over the final 800! It was a tactical race. How many women have you seen close a 1500 with a 1:57?

In the 10k, Wang Junxia closed the last mile in 4:28! Yes, doping alone really does explain most of it.

The other guy! wrote:

GoldenMiles wrote:

This is interesting and I'm surprised no one else has noted this. I'd love to talk to her to hear her side of the story.

Someone mentioned this a long time ago, but I haven't heard anything else about it: is Junxia really releasing an auto/biography sometime soon?

Just because she lives in the US doesn't mean she speaks any English. Plenty of first gen Chinese immigrants never learn to speak English.

Good point. Either way, I hope she writes her autobiography.

Nutella1 wrote:

Pretty sure this has been pointed out before but drugs alone don't explain her performances (or the performances of the whole group).

Facts are:

1. The results were never replicated outside of China. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

2. Do you really believe the wonder drug that they used was invented by the Chinese and then forgotten for all times? What was this drug? Which drug can increase the performance of female athletes by 20%?

At the end of the day, the track was short. They did 25 laps, but each lap was only 380m or so. A difference that is not visible to the naked eye.

This has been pointed out multiple times on this thread.

Each time, a very large number of holes was poked into it. For instance:

1) The mens' times were fairly normal with regards to their PBs.

In fact, the WINNING time for the MEN's 1500m was 3:48, while the winning time for the women's 1500m was 3:50.

Moreover, the winning times for the other events went as follows:

- Men's 800m - 1:49

- Men's 1500m - 3:48

- Men's 5000m - 13:32

- Men's 10000m - 28:40

- Men's Steeple - 8:24

- Men's 4 x 400m Relay - 3:08

- Women's 800m - 1:55

- Women's 1500m - 3:50

- Women's 3000m - 8:06

- Women's 10000m - 29:31

- Women's 4 x 400m Relay - 3:24

What this comes down to is that the women's times were completely off, and the men's times were completely normal. In fact, there are US high schoolers who have times either similar to or better than the men who performed here.

If the track was indeed short 20m, such a one-sided improvement of performance should not have been possible.

2) The times were technically repeated on a different Chinese track (Shanghai 1997), but ONLY for the 1500m. No other events produced extremely suspicious times. So unless another track happened to be short 20m for only ONE event, it's probably not likely that the track was short.

Beyond this, it's not like the women here are all nobodies who suddenly burst onto the scene.

**Liu Dong (800m winner) was a World Champion in the 1500m in 1993

**Qu Yunxia (1500m winner, 3000m 2nd place) was the 3000m 1993 World Champion and 1992 Olympic Bronze Medalist.

**Wang Junxia (3000m winner, Marathon winner, 10000m winner, 1500m 2nd place) was the 1996 5000m Olympic Champion, 1996 10000m silver medalist, and 1993 10000m World Champion.

**Zhang Lingli (1500m 3rd Place, 3000m 3rd Place, Marathon 3rd Place) was the 1993 3000m World Silver Medalist, and 1993 Marathon World Silver Medalist.

**Zhong Huangdi (10000m 2nd Place) was the 1991 10000m Silver Medalist, 1992 10000m Olympic 4th Place, and 1993 10000m World Silver Medalist,

**Zhang Lirong (10000m 3rd Place) was the 1993 World 3000m Bronze Medalist, and 1993 World Marathon Bronze Medalist.

I mean seriously...look at that lineup. All the Chinese did was take an absolutely world class field of female runners, pump them up with whatever drugs they could get their hands on in an environment in which they wouldn't get caught (China), and ran them all in the same races.

And when I say drugs, I don't mean the EPO microdosing and that sort of nonsense that athletes today use out of competition. I mean they gave them whatever they could find and had them pumped to the max just for these runs. I guarantee that had they been out of China at this time, every one of them would have been caught with some sort of banned substance in their bodies.

I even recall that some of them were acting as pacers for the others JUST to set the records. When you have drugged up world champions pacing other drugged up world champions, it's really not all that miraculous that records

Moreover, all of them had careers that quickly faded after these championships, which is pretty characteristic of overloading on drugs.

The runner who stands out for me is Wang Junxia because she had a number of impressive results outside of China. Really do hope she publishes that reported autobiography some day.

If those times were legit distance, legit timing + max doping they give interesting insights into just how much doping [at least as practiced in the mid 1990s] can help female athletes in the 1500m and the 3000m - events where VO2 max is at such a premium.

p.s. Yes, I know, no one's really approached Wang's 10000m time either, but it seems to me that the top East African women who have gone 14:1x for 5000m are capable of 29:30 for 10000m. Not as clear to me that any of them can hit 3:50.xx for 1500m or 8:06.xx for 3000m.

Dkny64 wrote:

p.s. Yes, I know, no one's really approached Wang's 10000m time either, but it seems to me that the top East African women who have gone 14:1x for 5000m are capable of 29:30 for 10000m. Not as clear to me that any of them can hit 3:50.xx for 1500m or 8:06.xx for 3000m.

It's not clear to me Genzebe Dibaba who ran 3:55, 8:16 indoors this year, couldn't break 8:06 for 3k outdoors if she had a great pacer like the Chinese did. The problem with women's elite racing is that you rarely see a pacer go half the distance, because if they can go half the distance they are good enough to be in the race and do very well. For example, an 8:06 would require the pacer to go 4:03 through 1500m! Noway you can find a pacer who can go that fast.

Stupid Belligerent Drunk wrote:

It's not clear to me Genzebe Dibaba who ran 3:55, 8:16 indoors this year, couldn't break 8:06 for 3k outdoors if she had a great pacer like the Chinese did. The problem with women's elite racing is that you rarely see a pacer go half the distance, because if they can go half the distance they are good enough to be in the race and do very well. For example, an 8:06 would require the pacer to go 4:03 through 1500m! Noway you can find a pacer who can go that fast.

I have a very hard time believing Dibaba could even hope to pull this off.

Wang Junxia's PBs (whether drug-assisted or not) are a 3:51 and 8:06, along with a 29:31 for the 10K. When you think about it, it's absolutely incredible for any runner to have a range like that. That would be like Gebrselassie or Bekele running a 3:27 along with the 5000m and 10000m world records.

This isn't a matter of a having a good pacer or not. Dibaba is just too far off. I mean, just look at Daniel Komen. When he ran his 3000m Outdoor record of 7:20, he also ran the Indoor record of 7:24, which is a 4-second separation.

When you say that Dibaba can beat 3:50 and 8:06 based on her 3:55 and 8:16 indoors, that's like saying some male runner who has run 3:31 and 8:30 has a hope of taking El Guerrouj and Komen's records. Just because she's closer than anyone else doesn't mean that she even has a prayer of it.

SBAC wrote:

When you say that Dibaba can beat 3:50 and 8:06 based on her 3:55 and 8:16 indoors, that\'s like saying some male runner who has run 3:31 and 8:30 [7:30?] has a hope of taking El Guerrouj and Komen\'s records. Just because she\'s closer than anyone else doesn\'t mean that she even has a prayer of it.

Point well taken but your math is slightly wrong, by percentages it would be more like a guy who runs 3:30 and 7:28 completely by themselves, claiming that. Not saying this makes your point wrong, but you did exaggerate a bit.

Stupid Belligerent Drunk wrote:

SBAC wrote:

When you say that Dibaba can beat 3:50 and 8:06 based on her 3:55 and 8:16 indoors, that's like saying some male runner who has run 3:31 and 8:30 [7:30?] has a hope of taking El Guerrouj and Komen's records. Just because she's closer than anyone else doesn't mean that she even has a prayer of it.

Point well taken but your math is slightly wrong, by percentages it would be more like a guy who runs 3:30 and 7:28 completely by themselves, claiming that. Not saying this makes your point wrong, but you did exaggerate a bit.

I don't think I ever saw her 2 mile record, but I know for a fact that she didn't run either the 1500m or the 3000m by herself.

She had a pacer through 800m in the 1500m

And a pacer as well in the 3000m

SBAC wrote:I mean, just look at Daniel Komen. When he ran his 3000m Outdoor record of 7:20, he also ran the Indoor record of 7:24, which is a 4-second separation.

komen jogged the 1st 2k outside 5'00

if he'd run it hard from the gun, he wouda been looking at 7'21/7'22