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ttc
Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 3:31PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Rojo mentions the best in other sports to argue sprinting's best, Bolt, isn't necessarily a cheat. That just because others cheat, it doesn't mean Bolt is- given his huge talent, just like the Shaq's were. That's how I interpret it.

But it's flawed.

Basketball, baseball, tennis & golf all rely MUCH less on max'ing out your body vs Track. Bird, Magic, Babe Ruth, McEnroe, Connors, J.Nicholson & countless others exemplify you can be a "regular guy" type athlete & be the best IN THOSE SPORTS, given skills, sport I.Q. & sometimes being taller than 99.9% of the public being the main reasons. What EPO or steroids give you are not necessary for Bird to make a shot, Kareem a sky hook or Shaq a dunk. They don't have to run the speed of a car to win.

If we could prove, say, a clean bodybuilder was the best among steroid kings- THAT would be the relevant comparison, given bodybuilding in it's own way, is also 99% dependent on a body's physical ceiling.

But somehow, I get the feeling Rojo will do a little "dance" & "change" what he meant, if he replies here.
nope to dope
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 3:39PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Marion Jones was a "high school prodigy", and yet she doped.

Agreed- flawed logic.
luv2run
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 3:41PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Marion Jones was a pretty darn good sprinter at the same age as Bolt. Yet she doped.

Also, Lance was a bit of a prodigy. He was competing with men in their primes in the triathlon when he was 15. Yet he too doped.

In the case of Ruth, the "dead ball" era preceded him. First, the ball really was "dead" but also the culture of baseball was such that homer runs were not valued as much. The story goes that Cobb did not think hitting a HR was that special and anyone could do it. He then set out to hit a HR and did. Now Cobb was one of the greatest hitters ever. Rule and equipment changes in baseball can make a huge difference in batting avgs and HR. Lowering or raising the mound. Moving fences in or out. Increasing or decreasing the size of foul territory.

I concur with some of the above statements when it comes to sports that rely more on skill. I wonder what other sport would Larry Bird have been good at?

Also, not sure what sport J Nicholson played...
Solomonism
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 3:45PM - in reply to luv2run Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Rojo said his article was an argument meant for why Bolt could be clean, not that he definitely was, although he (Rojo) did specifically say that he believes Bolt to be clean.
Goliath
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 3:54PM - in reply to Solomonism Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
But the whole point is that because of Bolts height he has a higher natural potential compared to everyone else. It is his height plus his success as a youth that make it plausible that he has remained clean while running out of this world times.
real reality check
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 4:05PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
9.58 is a total joke. Anyone who thinks someone breaking the 100m world record by .11 is even remotely clean is delusional child.
runn
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 4:08PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Why is it that some of you losers WANT Bolt to dope. You do not have to dope to be world class. Some do. Some, like Powell are past their prime and need it to compete, some are marginal and need it to get to the next level.
I also believe that Gay got screwed.
ttc
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 4:13PM - in reply to Goliath Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Goliath wrote:

But the whole point is that because of Bolts height he has a higher natural potential compared to everyone else. It is his height plus his success as a youth that make it plausible that he has remained clean while running out of this world times.


Disagree.

If being 6-5 was that huge an advantage, then without question, the world's best sprinters would all be my much taller than current. Minimum 6-3 avg... minimum. Sorry, bad logic & I say Rojo's reaching into fantasyland on this one.
kanny
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 4:22PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
One of my favorite sports related people is Lamar Gant. He is, pound for pound, arguably the strongest powerlifter of all time, and is universally (it seems) accepted as clean. He will always be the reason why I believe that there will be anomalies with talent for their craft far beyond what others on every possible performance enhancer could ever achieve.
might be wejo
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 4:31PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ttc wrote:

Rojo mentions the best in other sports to argue sprinting's best, Bolt, isn't necessarily a cheat. That just because others cheat, it doesn't mean Bolt is- given his huge talent, just like the Shaq's were. That's how I interpret it.

But it's flawed.

Basketball, baseball, tennis & golf all rely MUCH less on max'ing out your body vs Track. Bird, Magic, Babe Ruth, McEnroe, Connors, J.Nicholson & countless others exemplify you can be a "regular guy" type athlete & be the best IN THOSE SPORTS, given skills, sport I.Q. & sometimes being taller than 99.9% of the public being the main reasons. What EPO or steroids give you are not necessary for Bird to make a shot, Kareem a sky hook or Shaq a dunk. They don't have to run the speed of a car to win.

If we could prove, say, a clean bodybuilder was the best among steroid kings- THAT would be the relevant comparison, given bodybuilding in it's own way, is also 99% dependent on a body's physical ceiling.

But somehow, I get the feeling Rojo will do a little "dance" & "change" what he meant, if he replies here.



Yet in baseball, which many consider to be the most skill oriented of the major American sports, you have Bonds hitting 70 home runs on the juice.
ttc
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 4:31PM - in reply to kanny Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

kanny wrote:

One of my favorite sports related people is Lamar Gant. He is, pound for pound, arguably the strongest powerlifter of all time, and is universally (it seems) accepted as clean. He will always be the reason why I believe that there will be anomalies with talent for their craft far beyond what others on every possible performance enhancer could ever achieve.


Much more relevant comparison.
RunWild
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 4:46PM - in reply to nope to dope Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I have heard in track, Doping has worked its way down into HS sprinting just to get the attention of NCAA coaches. it is also quite known in HS football as well for the same reason - scholarships that could save you and your family $200000
table
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 5:06PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ttc wrote:

Disagree.

If being 6-5 was that huge an advantage, then without question, the world's best sprinters would all be my much taller than current. Minimum 6-3 avg... minimum. Sorry, bad logic & I say Rojo's reaching into fantasyland on this one.


You, also, brought nothing to the table with your post. Maybe if more athletically talented athletes went into track and field instead of basketball and football, we would see a rise in the average height of an elite sprinter.

Mo money in football and basketball if you are super athletically talented and 6'-4"+ in height.
trollism
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 5:07PM - in reply to runn Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

runn wrote:

Why is it that some of you losers WANT Bolt to dope. You do not have to dope to be world class. Some do. Some, like Powell are past their prime and need it to compete, some are marginal and need it to get to the next level.
I also believe that Gay got screwed.


Nah. I don't want him to dope. I want him to get caught.

The fact that's he's doping is pretty obvious to anyone with half a non-fanboy mind.
lslwl
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 5:11PM - in reply to table Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

table wrote:


You, also, brought nothing to the table with your post. Maybe if more athletically talented athletes went into track and field instead of basketball and football, we would see a rise in the average height of an elite sprinter.

Mo money in football and basketball if you are super athletically talented and 6'-4"+ in height.



Height has nothing to do with it says science. What is backing up your opinion?
categorically
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 5:14PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
All time Junior list at 100m followed by best senior time

SC = still competing

1 9.97 Mark LEWIS-FRANCIS wind guage malfunction, never ran faster than 10.04 legal, tested positive for canabis and missed three drugs tests
2 10.01 Darrel BROWN 9.99 SC
2 10.01 Jeffery DEMPS 10.01 SC
2 10.01 Yoshihide KIRYU 10.01 SC
5 10.03 Marcus ROWLAND 10.03 SC
6 10.04 D'Angelo CHERRY 10.04 SC
6 10.04 Christophe LEMAITRE 9.92 SC
8 10.05 Davidson EZINWA 9.94
8 10.05 Adam GEMILI 10.05 SC
10 10.06 Sunday EMMANUEL 10.06
10 10.06 Dwain CHAMBERS 9.97 doped
10 10.06 Walter DIX 9.88 SC
13 10.07 Stanley FLOYD 10.03
13 10.07 DaBryan BLANTON 10.07 SC
13 10.07 Tamunosiki ATORUDIBO 10.07
13 10.07 Jimmy VICAUT 9.95 SC
17 10.08 Andre CASON 9.92
17 10.08 Justin GATLIN 9.79 doped
17 10.08 J-Mee SAMUELS 10.03 SC
17 10.08 Ramil GULIYEV 10.08 SC
21 10.09 A Melvin LATTANY 9.96
22 10.1 Stanley KERR 10.1
22 10.1 Francis OBIKWELU 9.86 SC
24 10.11 Harvey GLANCE 10.05
24 10.11 Tim MONTGOMERY 9.92 doped
24 10.11 Yohan BLAKE 9.69 doped

You really have to see the progression of most of these guys. Being a junior prodigy in sprinting does not make you a great senior sprinter. Most guys actually get slower as they grow in their 20s. Some improved a little bit then fell off. Some doped.
lslwl
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 5:24PM - in reply to categorically Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

categorically wrote:


24 10.11 Yohan BLAKE 9.69 doped





When did Blake dope?
categorically
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 5:32PM - in reply to categorically Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
All time Junior list at 100m followed by best senior time

SC = still competing

1 19.93 Usain BOLT 19.19 SC
2 20.04 Ramil GULIYEV 20.04 SC
3 20.07 Lorenzo DANIEL 19.87
4 20.13 Roy MARTIN 20.05
5 20.14 Tyreek HILL 20.14 SC
6 20.16 Riaan DEMPERS 20.16
7 20.18 Walter DIX 19.53 SC
8 20.22 Dwayne EVANS 20.08
9 20.23 Michael TIMPSON 20.23
10 20.24 Joe DELOACH 19.75
10 20.24 Francis OBIKWELU 19.84
10 20.24 Roberto SKYERS 20.24
13 20.28 Andrew HOWE 20.28
14 20.29 Clinton DAVIS 20.29
14 20.29 Christian MALCOLM 20.08
14 20.29 Justin GATLIN 19.86 SC doped
14 20.29 Yusuke OMAE 20.29
18 20.3 Davidson EZINWA 20.30
19 20.32 J-Mee SAMUELS 20.32 SC
20 20.37 Jürgen EVERS 20.37
20 20.37 Roberto HERNÁNDEZ 20.37
20 20.37 DaBryan BLANTON 20.37
23 20.38 LaShawn MERRITT 19.98 SC doped
23 20.38 Julian FORTE 20.38 SC
25 20.39 Marshall DILL 20.39
25 20.39 Stanley KERR 20.39
25 20.39 Pat JOHNSON 20.39

Dix, DeLoach and Obikwelu stand out because they all dropped about 0.5 from their junior times. No one is saying they did so cleanly.

Bolt dropped .74 from his junior time, which was already the fastest in history by some margin.
categorically
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 5:35PM - in reply to lslwl Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Blake has a positive test on record in 2009 for 4-Methyl-2-hexanamine, a stimulant.

lslwl wrote:

When did Blake dope?
The bell curve
RE: Rojo's quote on Bolt - MAJOR flaw in reasoning. 7/18/2013 5:38PM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ttc wrote:


Goliath wrote:

But the whole point is that because of Bolts height he has a higher natural potential compared to everyone else. It is his height plus his success as a youth that make it plausible that he has remained clean while running out of this world times.


Disagree.

If being 6-5 was that huge an advantage, then without question, the world's best sprinters would all be my much taller than current. Minimum 6-3 avg... minimum. Sorry, bad logic & I say Rojo's reaching into fantasyland on this one.


Actually he is not. It takes other factors besides height to be a world class sprinter. There are a hell of a lot more men under 6 feet tall than over so your chances of finding a shorter person who has all of the other factors is much better than that of finding someone 6-5 who has them.
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