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Dowper
Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 3:42PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
what is this Rojo? amateur hour?

you sound like my 12 yo sons talking about how Usain Bolt is taller than his competitors therefore he is faster

and yes hes a total freak, but so is basically everybody sub-10, and while he might be the biggest freak of them all (maybe 9.7s legal) the stats don't lie, and his 9.58 is comparable to the likes of FloJos 10.49 relative to the next best times (also doped)

LetsRun.com's Editor's Note: Robert Johnson has now written a full column with his views on this subject matter. This thread which was a reaction to one or two lines Rojo initially said on the HP about today's Quote of the Day. You can read the column Robert has written (without reading any of these posts) here: How Can Usain Bolt Be Clean? He's the Lebron James and Babe Ruth of Track and Field

Josh Hamilton's Addiction
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 9:57AM - in reply to Dowper Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
People don't understand that being tall is far from advantageous in sprinting. He's obviously juiced. I've been saying that since '08.
trello
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 10:51AM - in reply to Josh Hamilton's Addiction Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Josh Hamilton's Addiction wrote:

People don't understand that being tall is far from advantageous in sprinting. He's obviously juiced. I've been saying that since '08.
I think the point is he's so tall which is traditionally thought (not really proven) to be an advantage, and yet so much faster than everyone else, that EVEN IF HE IS JUICED he is a complete freak of nature compared to everyone else.

If he can run 9.58 why hasn't a juiced 5'11" guy run even 9.68? The point is he is a freakish outlier who goes against conventional wisdom before you take any cheating into consideration.
Realistic Person
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 10:54AM - in reply to trello Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Flojo was also an outlier, and especially tall (5'7)
clarified
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 11:45AM - in reply to Realistic Person Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Rojo's idea that there are outliers is pretty silly. Babe Ruth might have been a much better home run hitter than anyone who came before him, but that was almost a century ago!

In 2013 in a sport with worldwide participation there is no way that Bolt can stick out that much just because he's tall.

This is the sad thing. He probably could have been the fastest clean sprinter in history.

Here are his progressions:

200m
2001 - 21.73 at age 15
2002 - 20.58
2003 - 20.13
2004 - 19.93 at 18
2005 - 19.99
2006 - 19.88
2007 - 19.75 at 21
2008 - 19.30 starts doping here, maybe earlier
2009 - 19.19
2010 - 19.56
2011 - 19.40
2012 - 19.32
2013 - 19.73 (so far)

100m
2007 - 10.03
2008 - 9.69 doping
2009 - 9.58
2010 - 9.82
2011 - 9.76
2012 - 9.63
2013 - 9.94 (so far)

So I it's pretty clear he started doping in 2007 or leading into the 2008 season.

He might have run 19.75 clean, which would be very close to the clean world record (before Johnson's doped it down to 19.32). In fact, the WR of 19.72 before Johnson was set at altitude and with +1.8 wind so Bolt's 19.75 is intrinsically better. If that was doped, too then 19.88 would still be one of the fastest ever clean times.

10.03 in his first year running the 100 is just impressive. He might have doped to run that, though. If he didn't then it indicates he could have gone 9.90 or lower cleanly. Times that would have won medals in 2008 and 2012 if no dopers were present.
txRUNNERgirl
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 12:11PM - in reply to clarified Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

clarified wrote:

Rojo's idea that there are outliers is pretty silly. Babe Ruth might have been a much better home run hitter than anyone who came before him, but that was almost a century ago!




Since when was Babe Ruth clean?
Randy Oldman
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 12:20PM - in reply to txRUNNERgirl Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

Since when was Babe Ruth clean?


He admitted to using beer and franks.
trello
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 12:48PM - in reply to clarified Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

clarified wrote:

In 2013 in a sport with worldwide participation there is no way that Bolt can stick out that much just because he's tall.

For f**ks sakes people, Rojo isn't saying he's faster because he's tall, he's saying he's an outlier because he's tall. Learn to think critically already.
god dammit guys
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 12:53PM - in reply to trello Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
BOLT IS CLEAN. you're all idiots. he extremely proud of the fact that he's clean and welcomes any of you to test him any hour of any day any season for any drug. he's a complete freak of nature and there are many qualities about him that differentiate him from nearly all elite sprinters. watch sports science. learn things. get edjumucated.
Whaaat?
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 12:58PM - in reply to Josh Hamilton's Addiction Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Josh Hamilton's Addiction wrote:

People don't understand that being tall is far from advantageous in sprinting.


People don't understand that being tall WAS far from advantageous in sprinting.
Jave
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:00PM - in reply to god dammit guys Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
A couple of things about bolt. He really did not come out of nowhere. A teenage phenom kind of like tiger woods. He ran 19.9 as a 17/18 year old and crazy fast as 15/16 year old. If you watch some of his teenage runs, look how ragged his technique is. He is all over the place and still runs very fast. Very poor technique. People forget that he has a serious back condition that before the 08 Olympics caused him a million hamstring issues and missed training time. He matured physically, worked on the back issue, technique improved and then combined with his awesome leverage you have some really fast times.
The Single Voice of Reason
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:07PM - in reply to Jave Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The Babe Ruth comparison is idiotic.

Ruth hit all his home runs right after the deadball era ended. They literally changed the composition of baseballs, making them lighter and springier. Ruth, who was of course a freakishly talented athlete, was hitting balls that were unlike those who'd come before him were hitting. The reason he was so superior to his contemporaries is a combination of his athletic ability, sure, but also of the fact that people were still playing the "small ball" traditional to the previous era, when home runs weren't a realistic expectation. The game change hugely in strategy because the ball changed and because Ruth, who was slightly ahead of his time, showed how the sport could be different.

Also worth nothing: modern sports are deeper in talent largely because of greater degrees of specialization, scientific training, and because participation numbers are far great than they were in the 1920s. Of course the field was thinner when he doubled the previous year's winner...regardless of the changes happening with the changes of the baseball, there also just weren't as many specialized athletes participating back then. To think otherwise is to prove one's idiocy.

Rojo obviously knows next to nothing about baseball.
not about the face
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:08PM - in reply to Jave Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Jave wrote:

A couple of things about bolt. He really did not come out of nowhere. A teenage phenom kind of like tiger woods. He ran 19.9 as a 17/18 year old and crazy fast as 15/16 year old. If you watch some of his teenage runs, look how ragged his technique is. He is all over the place and still runs very fast. Very poor technique. People forget that he has a serious back condition that before the 08 Olympics caused him a million hamstring issues and missed training time. He matured physically, worked on the back issue, technique improved and then combined with his awesome leverage you have some really fast times.



'freak' and 'outlier' are terms used by people who don't understand science. There is no magic.
The Single Voice of Reason
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:13PM - in reply to The Single Voice of Reason Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
For clarification of my above post:

the point being that clean outliers to the degree that Usain Bolt is an outlier are not realistic in widely-participated in sports in 2013.

Ruth was an outlier due to changes in the sport, the equipment, and because participation and training were vastly different back then, leading to less depth of ability.

Ruth hitting twice as many home runs as the previous year's best proves absolutely nothing about being able to put up outlier-type marks in a completely different sport during a completely different era with more people participating & better athletic training and preparation. Grow up and use your brain if you think otherwise.

Does the concept of an asymptote mean nothing to anyone here? The greater the performances become the less room there is to improve them, thereby making it more likely that you'll get a glut of people at a similarly impressive performance level, but also that there will be fewer and fewr (if any) truly massive outliers in modern sport. Without drug use, that is.
coach d
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:15PM - in reply to god dammit guys Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

god dammit guys wrote:

BOLT IS CLEAN. you're all idiots. he extremely proud of the fact that he's clean and welcomes any of you to test him any hour of any day any season for any drug. he's a complete freak of nature and there are many qualities about him that differentiate him from nearly all elite sprinters. watch sports science. learn things. get edjumucated.


There are NO Jamaicans that are clean, and that includes their anti-doping agency:



Victor Conte ‏@VictorConte 15 Jul
JADCO (Jamaican Anti-Doping) needs investigation. No transparency? No testing statistics provided for 5 yrs? http://tinyurl.com/o5qaf9n



Regarding Bolt running those times because he's tall (only), Rojo doesn't know what he's talking about. There have been other sprinters about as tall as Bolt. Francis Obikwelu was just as tall as Bolt. Tommie Smith, the first person to break 20.00, was 6'4". Where Bolt is different is not just the top end (which Obikwelu had as well), but the ability to accelerate out of the blocks with the best in the world (and that's where I think there steroids aka SARMS come in). At his peak, Obikwelu could almost run down just about anybody, and that included Maurice Greene: The catch was that he couldn't quite catch Greene because he didn't get out of the blocks fast enough.

I don't know whether Rojo really doesn't know any of this, or whether he's being disingenuous because Puma is an advertiser.
HoHoHo
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:32PM - in reply to Dowper Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
While I have supspicions about other athletes I believe Bolt is clean. A while back the guy who runs the biological passport program said that Bolt's blood work has never showed any variations that would indicate the use of PEDs. And yes I believe that Bolt's advatange is that he is a 6' 5'' guy with the turnover of a much shorter sprinter.
hhxh
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:37PM - in reply to HoHoHo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

HoHoHo wrote:

And yes I believe that Bolt's advatange is that he is a 6' 5'' guy with the turnover of a much shorter sprinter.




Lol please explain how his height and turnover affect his speed
trello
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:42PM - in reply to not about the face Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

not about the face wrote:

'freak' and 'outlier' are terms used by people who don't understand science. There is no magic.
Outlier is a common term used by any statistician. Doesn't imply magic at all.
HoHoHo
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:42PM - in reply to hhxh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Science of sport covered this already. Go look it up. Longer stride length + fast turnover means he can finish a 100M in 44 steps when everybody else needs 41.
trello
RE: Rojo and Usain Bolt 7/17/2013 1:44PM - in reply to hhxh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

hhxh wrote:

Lol please explain how his height and turnover affect his speed
Lol you could start with the fact that speed = stride length (directly proportional to height) * stride rate (directly proportional to turnover) and then go from there...
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