Why ar ethe NXN High Schools Successful?

I think if you can motivate 20-30 kids to put in 50 MPW you can have a team that will be taking a shot at state titles in most states and maybe making NXN at almost any school. A little bit of training knowledge (it isn't rocket science but it isn't completely obvious either) and a lot of motivational/people skills.

And a little luck. You do have to have some talented kids all come together at once.

No, yes, no, and yes.

Luck plays a significant role - you'll rarely make it far without having the talent to work with, and by the time you get to NXN you'll need the talent to be competitive - because there are other great coaches with just as much or more talent out there, unless you're lucky enough to have more talent than the rest.

There are certainly some coaches out that there are flat out better than other coaches. They may not always be the ones you think - because, as mentioned, luck plays a significant role.

As for what is keeping great coaches from joining the ranks of Newton, O'Brien, Tyson, etc. ... besides luck, some areas have better scheduling situations than others. Some areas have better access to competition than others. Some areas have better training conditions than others. Some schools have more resources than others. Some schools have more conflicting opportunities than others. Etc. etc. ... lots of factors that can go into how much success a program can have over a period of years.

Newton is definitely a great coach. He's also a good recruiter. One thing York has going for them is the size of the team. The team is over a hundred guys. It's a program that the best athletes coming in want to join because they think they have a chance to be a state champion. So they get guys that might otherwise play soccer (we never could get our 4:14 miler to run xc).

Anyone know how large are the other similarly successful teams?

I have a hard time getting my top guys to get under 17 for 5K although I have one very good runner. And their 1600 times are under 4:40. But they probably don't run 50 miles a week whereas my best guy gets in a long run every Sunday.

Boys Top-8 programs (according to average NXN score from 2007+)

Avg. - School - Enrollment - Team Size

197.33 - North Central WA - 338/class - 36

264.67 - York IL - 666/class - 100+

294.33 - Arcadia CA - 909/class - 88

305.17 - American Fork UT - 488/class - 26+

316.67 - Fayetteville-Manlius NY - 294/class - 26

325.33 - Christian Brothers NJ - 349/class - 48

327.33 - The Woodlands TX - 1031/class - 58

343.67 - Southlake Carroll TX - 647/class - 26

Notes: Team Size estimates based on last year's results posted online (boys only)... York well over 100 I'm sure (didn't even bother to look for how many were included on any online race results...), Arcadia 88 because that's what was mentioned on one of the recent Arcadia threads, and American Fork at least 26 since that is how many competed in their UT Region Championship race. Also included School Enrollment as that is another related statistic that is sometimes mentioned.

I'll see about looking up the same stats for girls.

Girls Top-8 programs (according to average NXN score from 2007+)

Avg. - School - Enrollment - Team Size

60.67 - Fayetteville-Manlius NY - 294/class - 22

156.67 - Saratoga Springs NY - 401/class - 30+

218.33 - Fort Collins CO - ~438/class - 33

221.17 - Saugus CA - 588/class - 43

258.33 - Tatnall DE - ~55/class ? - 15?

362.50 - Jesuit OR - 311/class - 73

363.17 - Carmel IN - ~1150/class - 123

368.33 - Southlake Carroll TX - 647/class - 27

Notes: Team Size estimates based on last year's results posted online (girls only)... Saratoga at least 30 since that is how many competed in their Conference Championship race. Also included School Enrollment as that is another related statistic that is sometimes mentioned.

Just like the boys, this was just what I could quickly/easily find online... school enrollment should be correct, but team size much more questionable. Should be accurate for North Central boys and Jesuit girls, and looks about right for Carmel girls. Others... are hopefully close.

Number 1: it's all a numbers game. The more guys you are able to commit to the program, the higher the chances you have of getting talent.

Number 2: training program that works. Like mentioned before, it's not rocket science, just a good combination of mileage, strength workouts, and speed workouts. It doesn't take a "VERY" knowledgeable and experienced coach to make nxn, just a coach that knows exactly what he is doing.

It takes luck to make NXN the first few years, but once you get the ball rolling (and get a few NXN appearances) it gets much easier to get kids to commit to the program. They look at how successful it is and want to be a part of it.

For the most part, sure. But the numbers game is a smaller part of it than your post would imply. Coaches have to find the right balance in terms of the size of their teams, the quality/attitude of their athletes, and the amount of coaches (and caliber of coaches) on the coaching staff.

Programs with enough money and local capable adults willing to coach for the team (either as a paid assistant or a volunteer) can grow their programs to be pretty big without sacrificing a whole lot of individualization. Programs without those resources will have to choose between highly-individualized training programs and more generalized training schemes.

recruiting is #1. not just numbers either, but the most athletic kids. you can not turn a donkey into a thoroughbred; it's just not possible!

so, a coach needs charisma. and they need to actually know what the F they are doing with their training. then it's just a matter of time.

Making each athlete on the team feel important, as well as making them feel like they matter. They're all cogs in one big machine and each have a purpose. If a coach can find a way to get kids to believe in this (which those coaches you mentioned have), it can completely change the team

So do you guys believe that a school with a graduating class size of around 100 will almost never make NXN?

Putting size aside, let's look at NY for a minute. Central and Western NY have always been strong in distance running. Long Island, with teams like Chaminade, St. Anthony's, Northport, etc. have large, successful teams. Yet they have all failed (FM the exception) to crack into that elite tier. Why?

While it can be a pain for a freshmen coach to organize, having a school-wide policy that all frosh join an after-school activity can really help you uncover some talent.

The bottom line is that you have to be able to get a group of kids motivated to run. You need to create a culture of working hard. Once you do that it is not about being a great or knowledgeable coach, just run them hard and the rest takes care of itself. Solid miles with two solid/hard workouts per week will make them successful. This is not rocket science folks.

domestic pro wrote:

recruiting is #1. not just numbers either, but the most athletic kids. you can not turn a donkey into a thoroughbred; it's just not possible!

I've seen a number of 20 minute guys become 16 minute guys. It may not be possible to make donkeys into the very elite but you can turn them into very solid high school runners if they have mental toughness and desire.

Fat Joe wrote:

domestic pro wrote:

recruiting is #1. not just numbers either, but the most athletic kids. you can not turn a donkey into a thoroughbred; it's just not possible!

I've seen a number of 20 minute guys become 16 minute guys. It may not be possible to make donkeys into the very elite but you can turn them into very solid high school runners if they have mental toughness and desire.

absolutely agree. but we aren't talking about 16 minute guys here, we are talking about 14 minute guys. that's a different ballgame.

The actual team size isn't much of a factor, because a lot of that is whether the coach puts restrictions on joining the team (must be under a time threshold). That won't make the team worse by simply having a small team. Also, some schools allow cross country to be treated as more of a social sport, which will attract a lot more non elite talent. They may have 100 runners on the team, but if hardly any of them are serious, that won't make a difference.

What REALLY matters is the size of the school, because that gives the school a better chance of having great running talent in the school.

In public schools with open enrollment (and private schools), the strength of the program is the biggest factor, because the best runners will go to that school to run for a great program with a great coach even if they don't live in that district. In that case the size of the school isn't much of an issue, because they're pulling the best talent from a large area, even if the school is small.

Coaching certainly is a big part of developing a program and motivating the athletes, but I don't think the top coaches necessarily know more about running than anyone else. It's pretty easy to develop a training plan that will get the most out of the athletes. Like I said, they play a big role in motivating the athletes though.

I wasn't always a great HS runner, but with hard work I was able to go from a 5:00 miler as a freshman to run 4:18 as a senior, from running 11:00 to dropping it down to a 9:15. So it just takes pacience with your training and your coach. It's just about giving the freshman a chance. I beliieve limiting freshman from joining the team can come back to haunt you. You never know what they can become.

But on the other hand, we had a freshman soccer player come out to join track. He was simply a natural. Two weeks after he joined the team, and only after running easy 3-5 milers a day, our coach decided to put him in a 800m. He was able to run 2:05. He went on to being a top 5 runner for us in xc his sophomore year. He was talented, but he brought the worst attitude. He would skip practice and because of him we had a lot of team conflicts.

So no matter how talented a runner is, you need to do what's best for the team. It wasn't worth keeping him.

I can tell you the woodlands have around 100 and carroll has around 60 on the boys side

My school we ran at NTN my last 2 years, and have sent 2 teams since I graduated, with an individual sent on the years the team didn't make it.

Here's my take on it- it does start with having the numbers, I come from a team with well over 100 kids (3000+ 9-12 grade). More opportunities for talent, let alone we did know of a few very talented guys that played soccer or just didn't want to run.

The year before we made it, we had been ranked in the top 10 in our region (back before a regional meet was held). We realized we could be good the next year.

Next season came around, and we had 2 guys that went from being mid 17 5k'ers a year ago to 1620/30 types. 2 of our top guys improved a good amount as well and were consistent top contenders in most meets. We had the thought, "that NTN thing.. that sounds pretty cool, lets win state, and then lets try to get to nationals and see how good we really are." Well we won state, made it to nationals, and got handily tossed, finished further down than we thought we would.

Senior year we had the same fire, we were gearing up for nationals all year, made it there.

The following 2 years after I graduated my school sent teams, successfully finishing higher up each year. My take on it is this- we already had a reputable program, NTN allowed us to take it to a whole new level. The young guys on the team saw what we had done, had listened to all our stories, watched us race, witnessed us come home with heaps of free gear etc. and it clicked, "if they can do it we can do it, lets continue to build our programs legacy and earn those experiences and tell those stories ourselves."