Apparently you have to be smart to do STEM, whereas you don't to do other things.
Interesting read.
At least with regards to "pre-med" (whatever that is) they are forgetting to account for the significant population of students who intend on going to medical school who leave science and engineering majors for easier humanities/sociology courses and take the bare minimum sciences (chem, bio, ochem, calc). Then they only have to average 3.5 GPA there to be competitive for med school, and can have a very high overall GPA, time to volunteer at hospitals, maybe do research, go to africa, etc. Much much much different than majoring in chem or engineering and dealing with P.chem and the like, which will devour your GPA but more importantly your time. Med schools then take the "well rounded" students, which is complete crap because they tend to have little scientific knowhow or curiosity and end up practicing anecdotal rather than evidence based medicine (generally speaking).
The reason people aren't opting for STEM majors is that there is the illusion of easier pay days in other professions, such as the ambiguous business major. Many of their dads/moms are in "business" and drive nice cars, live in big houses, and seem to have free time. When you see this its hard to take the harder path. The realty is starting to hit many of these unemployed grads, however.
A lot of people did drop CS during the first two years because they had horrible work ethics and didn't want to cheat (which is better than having horrible work ethics and cheating, but still super lame). They would put off projects until the last minute and then pull all-nighters trying to hack together really bad code and they'd fail and be surprised. Some of those people were smart. Some weren't. Intelligence didn't seem to make a huge difference there. The people who knew how to do work did well and the people who didn't failed or cheated.
In math the weed-out class wasn't until senior year for most people (real analysis) but the good thing is you can't really cheat at real analysis since each person proves the same thing in a unique way. It'd be way too obvious. So I guess in math if you weren't cut out to prove things well you got weeded out in real analysis and otherwise you made it. So everyone who graduated with a degree in math was pretty smart.
MS4 wrote:
Med schools then take the "well rounded" students, which is complete crap because they tend to have little scientific knowhow or curiosity and end up practicing anecdotal rather than evidence based medicine (generally speaking).
It's good that you backed that up with peer-reviewed data instead of anecdotal evidence.
I washed out of CS back in the late 80's 'cuz I couldn't keep a 3.0 in the pre-req math classes. I took 3 semesters of Calc and a couple other classes. I got an A in pretty much every programming class. This was back when we learned Fortran, Pascal....we just got started in C. I sure can't remember how to do addition in binary, but who cares. I ended up with a degree in history.
I spent nearly 15 years writing code without the degree and it never really mattered anyway. No one cares now, and I'm more a management type who solves problems that "real" CS graduates made....and I still write code.
MS4 wrote:
Interesting read.
At least with regards to "pre-med" (whatever that is) they are forgetting to account for the significant population of students who intend on going to medical school who leave science and engineering majors for easier humanities/sociology courses and take the bare minimum sciences (chem, bio, ochem, calc). Then they only have to average 3.5 GPA there to be competitive for med school, and can have a very high overall GPA, time to volunteer at hospitals, maybe do research, go to africa, etc. Much much much different than majoring in chem or engineering and dealing with P.chem and the like, which will devour your GPA but more importantly your time. Med schools then take the "well rounded" students, which is complete crap because they tend to have little scientific knowhow or curiosity and end up practicing anecdotal rather than evidence based medicine (generally speaking).
The reason people aren't opting for STEM majors is that there is the illusion of easier pay days in other professions, such as the ambiguous business major. Many of their dads/moms are in "business" and drive nice cars, live in big houses, and seem to have free time. When you see this its hard to take the harder path. The realty is starting to hit many of these unemployed grads, however.
You didn't mention the MCAT, which does help mitigate many of the problems you pointed out. A philosophy major with a high GPA and a 35 has it made, but I doubt many philosophy majors with high GPAs and 27s are getting in. It is pretty annoying, however, that someone with a 3.2 in a hard major from a hard school won't get into any MD schools whereas someone with a 3.8 from a shitty school in an easy major will be golden as long as he or she can manage a reasonable MCAT.
Ole Timer wrote:
I washed out of CS back in the late 80's 'cuz I couldn't keep a 3.0 in the pre-req math classes. I took 3 semesters of Calc and a couple other classes. I got an A in pretty much every programming class. This was back when we learned Fortran, Pascal....we just got started in C. I sure can't remember how to do addition in binary, but who cares. I ended up with a degree in history.
I spent nearly 15 years writing code without the degree and it never really mattered anyway. No one cares now, and I'm more a management type who solves problems that "real" CS graduates made....and I still write code.
Well yeah, there's a difference between computer science and programming, even though our society seems to think they're the same thing. My mentor at Amazon never graduated from college. He came to the US by sneaking out of Cuba into Mexico by marriage to some chick he'd never met, crossed the border into the US, picked up programming on his own in Miami, and was good enough to get a job at Amazon. Nobody cares that he doesn't have a degree. He's written code that used company-wide. He knows what he's doing.
Real CS does require a strong understanding of mathematics though.
I've no idea what they teach now, but when I was in the program, it was pretty much all programming. Maybe it depends on where you went to school (or when).
BTW, if you're wondering if the OP is a troll or not, check the date on the original article.
lange wrote:
It is pretty annoying, however, that someone with a 3.2 in a hard major from a hard school won't get into any MD schools whereas someone with a 3.8 from a shitty school in an easy major will be golden as long as he or she can manage a reasonable MCAT.
Lol, then they are an idiot for taking that route and no one should feel sorry for them.
I don't believe that I have the aptitude to succeed in a STEM field.
lange wrote:
You didn't mention the MCAT, which does help mitigate many of the problems you pointed out. A philosophy major with a high GPA and a 35 has it made, but I doubt many philosophy majors with high GPAs and 27s are getting in. It is pretty annoying, however, that someone with a 3.2 in a hard major from a hard school won't get into any MD schools whereas someone with a 3.8 from a shitty school in an easy major will be golden as long as he or she can manage a reasonable MCAT.
Being directly involved with med school admissions, I am qualified to point out how absolutely wrong you are. There may be schools which perform admissions like you write here, but I assure you the vast majority do not. Major matters. A transcript matters. Not just the science GPA, but what the science GPA consists of does matter to all of us.
Having said that, I can also say that I have known some engineering majors with very high GPAs and high MCATs who have made TERRIBLE doctors. They know the material, they pass the tests, often with flying colors. I say they pass the tests with flying colors, but let me clarify that. They pass the writtens and practicals with flying colors. But their patient interactions are usually terrible - including being clueless in social interactions, lacking empathy for others' suffering, completely lacking any understanding of the world out there and the conditions in which many people have to live, and even being downright pedantic with and judgmental of patients. I have seen a medical student nearly ace every written and practical test given and flat our fail the OSCEs based on their complete and utter inability to relate to other human beings.
Yes, we want intelligent physicians. But we want caring physicians also.
lange wrote:
BTW, if you're wondering if the OP is a troll or not, check the date on the original article.
Because obviously anyone who comes across an article from a few years ago and decides it's interesting is a troll.
I didn't include MCAT because I feel like its more of an IQ test. You have to know little science in the same way you dont need much math for the SAT/ACT, just a good IQ. Plus, the verbal section is well acknowledged as the most important section and requires no science at all.
Stache- I would have included peer reviewed data if any existed but noone would ever waste time on such a study. I like your style tho.
med school professor wrote:
lange wrote:You didn't mention the MCAT, which does help mitigate many of the problems you pointed out. A philosophy major with a high GPA and a 35 has it made, but I doubt many philosophy majors with high GPAs and 27s are getting in. It is pretty annoying, however, that someone with a 3.2 in a hard major from a hard school won't get into any MD schools whereas someone with a 3.8 from a shitty school in an easy major will be golden as long as he or she can manage a reasonable MCAT.
Being directly involved with med school admissions, I am qualified to point out how absolutely wrong you are. There may be schools which perform admissions like you write here, but I assure you the vast majority do not. Major matters. A transcript matters. Not just the science GPA, but what the science GPA consists of does matter to all of us.
Having said that, I can also say that I have known some engineering majors with very high GPAs and high MCATs who have made TERRIBLE doctors. They know the material, they pass the tests, often with flying colors. I say they pass the tests with flying colors, but let me clarify that. They pass the writtens and practicals with flying colors. But their patient interactions are usually terrible - including being clueless in social interactions, lacking empathy for others' suffering, completely lacking any understanding of the world out there and the conditions in which many people have to live, and even being downright pedantic with and judgmental of patients. I have seen a medical student nearly ace every written and practical test given and flat our fail the OSCEs based on their complete and utter inability to relate to other human beings.
Yes, we want intelligent physicians. But we want caring physicians also.
And you've never known English majors like this?
MS4 wrote:
Stache- I would have included peer reviewed data if any existed but noone would ever waste time on such a study. I like your style tho.
I really don't think Noone would have done something like that. He has so much to do already.
xenonscreams wrote:
In math the weed-out class wasn't until senior year for most people (real analysis)
You don't have to take real analysis to get a math degree. My graduate-preparatory degree required only complex analysis and abstract algebra.
You don't have to be that smart to pass in other subjects because there are fewer clear-cut standards against which you can measure the students as clearly passing or failing, and there is this tolerance such that you write the paper, you get c or b or better. Now, all that is required to bring humanities grade inflation down is for the Deans to set a standard and publicize it. At Fordham, when I taught there, they did such a thing and philosophy was to come in at around a 2.90 avg and it did. But when you are always pushed to pass students and you get in trouble with the deans and dept chair if more than 1/4 of the class fails or drops out, then grades will be higher. Even on factual exams where you have to supply the information the temptation is to give some partial credit even for wrong answers where the answer is about some other aspect of the class, and so that increases the pass rate. But part of it is also that most of us are fluent in English and read and write and speak in it many hours a day for decades before we reach college, so that we are actually far, far better at it than at math and the sciences, which we spend so little time working on over the years. So, grade inflation plus preparation make up much of the difference between sciences and humanities. And you will also get people acing courses in the sciences do badly in the humanities. Just remember that passing a humanities course these days does not mean that you did even adequately in it. If you don't get an A, you just did not understand very much at all, but the prof, under pressure and conforming to expectations, passed you with a decent grade anyway.
I've not known many English majors in med school, but the ones I have known were indeed solid scientifically and could actually relate to people. Most of the liberal arts majors I've seen applications for and interviewed don't get into top medical schools because they don't have the scientific background, as mentioned above.
Plenty of STEM majors from solid schools with great GPAs and solid MCATs show enough through their activities and personality to show they actually understand and like people. The flip side of the coin is that there are plenty of STEM majors who have great GPAs and MCATs and really don't like dealing with people. Why'd they want to get into medicine? They shouldn't be in medicine.
We are looking for people with high MCATs and strong GPAs in solid majors from good schools, who also show evidence of actually liking working with people in some capacity.
Philosophy majors get the top GMAT and LSAT scores of any major, and among the best at the GRE (the best in verbal), but philosophy's in the humanities, so the majors must not be that smart, right?