I don't understand Daniel's Running Formula. Can someone knowledgeable help?

I don't understand - he has workout schedules in the book. You pick your distance and then you follow along week by week.

What don't you understand?

What's to understand? Get your VDOT based on a recent race. Train at the recommended paces for that VDOT. If you're lazy, use the schedules in the back of the book. Fill-in with easy paced runs and some strides.

Ok not any help but you 5/10 times are almost exactly what I've run and its nice to see that 1:23. Did you run those times on 60mpw? I plan on running around 50mpw when I'm allowed to run consistently and would love to run close to 1:20.

I've read Daniels once and I always go back to it and jump around. I don't run the 5 very well so I'm kind of guessing training based on progression runs.

The formula: Hard work + recovery = improvement.

That was at 70 mpw, 5 weeks before my marathon.

1:23 is a bit better than your other times.

Daniels Reader wrote:

The title sort of says it all. I've read Running Formula a few times, and need help getting on a schedule. I was hoping a coach or knowledgeable athlete could help suggest where to start, based on my (modest) pr's and recent mileage. 18:22 5k, 38:07 10k, 1:23 hm, 2:57 marathon. I have been running 60-65 mpw for the past 6 weeks, with 2 quality workouts each week- usually a tempo and and some kind of interval workout. I feel like I'm starting to get fit, and could run sub 18 in the right race. I know I suck, don't bother trolling me.

Yeah, not sure what your specific questions are, but for starters, go out and run that sub 18, or another race. Look up the VDOT, and corresponding E, T, I, and R paces, and train at those. Follow the schedules in the back if you want to periodize a bit between now and the fall for some goal fall races. Every 4-6 weeks, adjust your VDOT paces (hopefully faster) as you feel you improve to a new VDOT fitness level.

And work on your attitude, you don't suck.

The VDOT charts int he back of the 2nd edition are better bc it accommodates the differences in the aerobic curve amoung the shorter distance guys and the endurance based guys.

They work quite well but I like McMillanRunningCalculator.com better.

Or what I do for my athletes is to take each energy system and give a specific pace based on their individual capacities in each system. Been using this on myself since HS and on athletes for over 10 years and it helps make every workout a more appropriate intensity. For example, I was an 800/1600 meter runner in HS and struggled on the Threshold work done at my VDOT. So I took my 15k time and used that VDOT's threshold pace for threshold training. It allowed me to finish the works strong and fresh instead of feeling like a weak female body part. I started to enjoy them more, did them much more often, and got stronger very quickly.

I guess my trepidation in starting is because Daniels doesn't spell out a day by day schedule, a la Pfitz' Advanced Marathoning. My main concerns are hitting optimal mileage, and if it's beneficial to cut back on the volume and have a 'recovery week' every so often, also per Pfitz.

I'm going to follow the 5-15k schedule, but am wondering if I need to run phase I in it's entirety. I ran a marathon in late April, ran sporadically for about two weeks after, and have been running consistently (3 days off in the last 37) since. Mileage has been in the 60's over that period. I've also been running 2 quality workouts per week, so my concern is that if I start at phase I and do 6 weeks of running @ E pace, I'll be backtracking. Is there any validity to this thought? Should I go ahead an do phase I and work on getting the mileage up to where I'd like it to be? (80-85mpw)

Also, does anyone follow the points system he lays out early in the book? What about the 'Gold Elite' plan in Ch 14?

a good discussion of how hard it is to follow daniels and how important it is to listen to your body.

ShoeFetish wrote:

Or what I do for my athletes is to take each energy system and give a specific pace based on their individual capacities in each system. Been using this on myself since HS and on athletes for over 10 years and it helps make every workout a more appropriate intensity. For example, I was an 800/1600 meter runner in HS and struggled on the Threshold work done at my VDOT. So I took my 15k time and used that VDOT's threshold pace for threshold training. It allowed me to finish the works strong and fresh instead of feeling like a weak female body part. I started to enjoy them more, did them much more often, and got stronger very quickly.

I like this idea. So, I'm guessing 15k time for T pace, 3k-5k time for I pace, 1500/mile time for R pace. What did you find worked best for E pace? Marathon, if you have it?

Been a few years since I followed Daniel's but I remember E as being slower than marathon. You wouldn't want to routinely run 17-20 miles at marathon pace. If you're doing that every weekend, you're running your marathons too slowly.

Catcher in the Rye wrote:

Been a few years since I followed Daniel's but I remember E as being slower than marathon. You wouldn't want to routinely run 17-20 miles at marathon pace. If you're doing that every weekend, you're running your marathons too slowly.

You are 100% correct, E pace is significantly slower that M (marathon) pace, but you misunderstood my question.

The guy had said he used the most applicable race distance to individually determine each of the Daniels paces, rather than using just one VDOT. He was much faster at the shorter (say 800,1600) distances, and found that the T pace was too fast for him. So, instead of using the VDOT from his 1600m time to determine his T pace, he would use a slower VDOT that matched up with his 15km race time... but just for T pace. He would use the faster VDOT for R pace, and I assume I pace.

My question for him was: what race distance did he use to determine the VDOT to get his E pace?