More Kenyan Doping

CyclingGuy wrote:

Canova smokescreen wrote:

Renato's explanation of the mechanism of EPO is so detailed it's as if Michaela Ferrari himself was offering discourse.

"Michele Ferrari is a good man" (L. Armstrong/R. Canova)

Why don't you show us that?

I see Nutella1 asking Renato is agrees with Armstrong's characterization of Ferrari as a "good guy" and Renato responds:

"His mentality was built according these factors : for him, every scientific aid was absolutely correct, and he never was interested in the official limits between legal and/or illegal substances.

He is also a good expert of training methodology, and many bikers went to him for methodological advices and training programs.

Personally, I never agreed with his convinctions, and my relations with him always were sporadic.

As person, he's very pleasant when you can speak about general problems, being provided of great culture.

I don't know what "good guy" can mean for Lance.

Of sure, my opinion about any pharmacological help for athletes is exactly the opposite of his opinion.

....

According to my moral principles, no."

Merga is no joke. he won 2 years ago and was second today.

also excellent on the track circuit.

Black Anthony wrote:

Canova smokescreen wrote:

Renato's explanation of the mechanism of EPO is so detailed it's as if Michaela Ferrari himself was offering discourse.

Agree and this is what always seemed funny about Renato. Yeah, it's cool that he is so knowledgeable on the subject of EPO and hemocrit, but why does he need be? I have talked to a few high level American coaches and they know nothing about this subject. Why is Renato such an expert if he has no involvement in chemical enhancements?

How can these "high level coaches" not know basic physiology? Epo is a naturally occurring hormone and is produced in response to moving to high altitude. That induces rbc production. These friends of yours don't even know the basics of altitude training? Come on. I'm not a Renato defender but this was a really lame attack.

[In fact, the final goal is the same : the increase of the number of RBC, consequentely of the Hct.] quote

Is the goal the same? I think that some of my patients who show up to the ED with acute abdominal bleeds with Hb&Hct of 17.6/53.2 are simply hemoconcentrated. Once we give them a fluid bolus they drop to 8/26 and we need to do a blood transfusion. The point here is that they have a massively decreased ability to carry O2 in their blood, despite having a great h/h. This is often evidenced by a high serum lactate (non-specific indicator of tissue dying from lack of O2). Total RBCs is the test we care about here. For an athlete, this translates to VO2. If you have few RBCs but a great crit, you'll guaranteed have a terrible ability to adequately perfuse O2 dependent tissue.

[BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS HAVING THE STIMULUS OF HYPOXIA, OR, WITHOUT THIS, THE STIMULUS OF EPO ASSUMPTION.

Now, with reference to what I explained above, we need to see WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS NO STIMULUS, BUT ADAPTATION.

In fact, people born and living in altitude don’t have any stimulus from that situation. They are not exposed to conditions different from usual, so don’t have any stress in that situation.] *quote

I agree. I also appreciate your methodical thought process. I must admit I get slightly confused at the ensuing bit:

[That means they don’t have any of the effects I explained above :

1. They don’t increase the number of RBC

2. They don’t have high blood viscosity

3. They have a better ability to extract O2 from air

4. They have a better ability to use O2 in state of hypoxia (for them normal)] *quote

Based on the time it took you to write this, and your level of information, I feel that I must be misinterpreting or losing something here. Nevertheless, are you assuming here that we take some hard training Kenyans born at 2500m and then give them EPO and then your four points are to follow? If so, I will disagree. You take any well trained athlete born and raised at elevation and inject EPO and you will certainly see an increase in RBC mass with a corresponding increase in viscosity, which in turn will allow higher O2 carrying capacity. This is evidenced by blood tests demonstrating increased RBC mass in such cases. If I'm missing something please let me know

[So, what really happens is that we can reach the same level of O2 at disposal of our body or with the assumption of EPO (in this case the total volume of blood doesn’t change), or with proper training in altitude (of course speaking about athletes born and living in altitude, so athletes NOT RECEIVING ANY STIMULUS FROM THAT SITUATION).] *quote

Again, I appreciate the logical order with which you've presented your argument. However, my experience and the literature I'm familiar with contradicts this. I'm also not completely sure I follow your stimulus-> adaptation idea. I really like it, but I'm just not sure If I buy that injecting EPO in such athletes isn't a stimulus--> adaptation in itself.

[If you go to see the names of athletes banned for blood doping, you can see how 99% come from Countries where their training and their life are at sea level. Ifrane, in Maroc, is 1600m, and the effect of altitude is not very important (and in any case the best Maroccans trains there for no longer than 2-3 months per year). Same situation for Russians and athletes from those Countries.] *quote

Agreed. They get a way bigger benefit for the aforementioned reasons. Also the structural alteration of Hb to those born and raised at elevation plays into this.

[So, the fact some Kenyan can take EPO doesn’t mean EPO can work. Of course, if a Kenyan athlete doesn’t have proper hard training, he can’t increase his total blood volume, and in this case can have some advantage taking EPO ; but this advantage on the performance is LESS than what he can obtain increasing his training in correct way.] *quote

Again, we kind of agree here. However, even if you don't increase your total blood volume (because your point here is that the extra RBC's are pushing fluid out of the way and essentially decreasing tissue perfusion?) the increased O2 capacity (or increased volume of O2 in your blood,= VO2) outweighs any changes in viscosity, such that slight decreases in tissue perfusion are made negligible by the increased O2 they receive.

I appreciate you taking the time to lay out your thoughts here. In the end, there is not enough data surrounding the exact questions we are attempting to tackle. However, I would say that the cumulative ancillary data favors the statement that EPO administration to trained athletes born and raised at elevation increases athletic performance in aerobic endeavors.

Wait so Coach Renato actually knows that Italian dope doc?

Jeff Wigand wrote:

HRE wrote:

Is it not possible that someone who is hiding something (and I'm not singling out Renato here) would post here in an attempt to have a body of information "explaining" why his guys are clean even if there is reason to believe otherwise?

I think mopak's post is bang on the money.

I don't think anyone doing anything illegal would open themselves up to any form of scrutiny. The drug cheats I've known were loathe to speak about it (prior to their public guilt).

Maybe. But maybe that's what someone hiding something would want you to think. My point is just that I don't think you can use someone's frequency and depth of LR posts as a gauge of their honesty.

.. wrote:

Wait so Coach Renato actually knows that Italian dope doc?

it's a small world

Coached his daughter at one point.

.. wrote:

Wait so Coach Renato actually knows that Italian dope doc?

Aspiring heme/onc MS3 wrote:

[In fact, the final goal is the same : the increase of the number of RBC, consequentely of the Hct.] quote

Is the goal the same? I think that some of my patients who show up to....

I appreciate you taking the time to lay out your thoughts here. In the end, there is not enough data surrounding the exact questions we are attempting to tackle. However, I would say that the cumulative ancillary data favors the statement that EPO administration to trained athletes born and raised at elevation increases athletic performance in aerobic endeavors.

Excellent response.

From one of the biggest advocates of Kenyan running Toby Tanser

More bad news from Kenya - and conclusive proof that EPO does work on Kenyan runners. I have heard a few times people pout that EPO has zero effect on H-Altitude runners - I think the woman who has just been caught and her sudden ten minute improvement silence that one. As for that Pokwot runner, it is a shameful story. I wish these athletes would actually explain how they got the drugs. My idea is a lifetime ban if they are silent, a four year ban if they talk.... otherwise as the Skinny Kenyan says, "Stop using words like Zero tolerance."

crazy how Kenyans are being caught left and right considering EPO doesn't work for them

So are all the top marathoners doped for sure. Or does this bio book actually work now. Since WADA was complaining about access I guess it doesnt..

You have a funny idea about what a coach need to know. It's like thinking a mechanic doesn't need to know how an engine works.

Anyway, since I have IAAF lecturer, and I go in every Country of the World in order to make courses for Elite level for coaches, to know the effects training provokes in the body of athletes is a MUST for me.

I don't know EPO because I needed to use it. But I know what EPO is because training in altitude is one of the main advantages we can use with distance runners.

Many times, I see a lot of methodological mistakes from athletes going in altitude without the right specific knowledge. I saw an athlete as Thomas Schoenlebe, World Champion in 1987 of 400m with 44"33, running 3 times UNDER the current World Best of 500m in training, with 8' of rest, in Sestriere (1988 : 59"8 / 59"7 / 59"8), I was sure he could win Seoul Olympic bettering the WR, instead he went out in the heats running 46"5 and finished his career.

But I want to remember that NEVER there was some experiment regarding EPO in altitude, to athletes trained at high volume and high intensity regime.

So, ALL THE STUDIES ABOUT EPO IN ALTITUDE, FOR ATHLETES HAVING THE BEST TRAINING AND TOP TALENT, ARE ALL CONJECTURES.

So, if it's true I don't have any proof EPO doesn't work (but I have the proof it's possible to beat WR completely clean, because some athletes I coach did and I'm completely sure about themselves) with top athletes in those conditions, it's also true NOBODY HAS THE PROOF EPO CAN WORK, because all the physiological explanations I gave above are not fruit of hallucinations, but of years of experiences, and not only with Kenyans.

Renato Canova wrote:

But I want to remember that NEVER there was some experiment regarding EPO in altitude, to athletes trained at high volume and high intensity regime.

Bengt Saltin:

We have noticed how Kenya 's blood values ​​during the period 2008 to 2010 have been much higher than in previous years, when they race in Europe. Such a phenomenon we have not seen before. It is beyond any doubt for me that there is some kind of blood manipulation.

your stamina is impressive.

Renata's explanations hold no water.

Of course EPO can help at altitude and of course it will help Kenyans. Saying anything else is ridiculous. It is like Renato feels the top athletes have hit the max and can not improve, therefore the top athletes can't be helped.

This is ridiculous. Of course Lance Armstrong was an elite cyclist without EPO. Are you saying they all took it even though they know it didn't work?

Running is similar.

Bengt Saltin was with me in some specific seminar about training in altitude and methodologi for Marathon runner. For example, in 1998 we were together in Baden Baden, and we had occasion to well know each other, and to speak about real training experinces.

So, I don't have any doubt what he says is true. But I don't share his conclusion.

Till 2008, regarding the track season, many of the best athletes could stay in Europe for about 3-4 weeks in order to compete in several meetings, since the calendar was very much more full than today, and the prizes were more consistant. In many studies I did in the period 1992-2001 in Italy, with Kenyan too (since we had a good budget from the University of Torino for researching about every type of parameter regarding blood variations, and the possibility to use as "examples" long and middle distance runners, Italian and/or Kenyans, was very interesting for the researchers), I saw classic parameters (as Hct and Hgb) increasing after one week of stay at sea-level, for decreasing again after 3-4 weeks.

I already said normally Kenyan athletes, staying in altitude, when are tested in altitude don't have very high level of Hct and Hgb. Instead, they have a big MCV, very much higher than in people living at sea level.

I spoke about this fact with many specialists (hematologists and clinic professors), and nobody was really able to give an answer to this strange fact : the values of athletes (may be of normal people, too) living in altitudes BECOME HIGHER IN THEIR FIRST PERIOD AT SEA LEVEL.

Now, athletes come directly from Kenya, and goes back immediately after the race. This happens because there are no more meetings very close one another, and the top runners don't want to stay too long time at sea level, fearing to lose thier shape (as many times can happen, because not always in Europe their stay can be well connected with the possibilities of a good training).

I think the difference in the values can depend on this factor. Otherwise, if before 2008 there values were lower, while the best results are from the years before ?

You understand that, who looks at doping only, cant have any evidence from the real results of the athletes.

The EPO doping is from 1990 and 2002, according to many people. How is that the WR of steeple, 5000, 10000, HM and Marathon (for not speaking about 800m) men, and of steeple, 5000, HM and Marathon women, are ALL after this period ?

For other people, the fact performances on track didn't improve after 2006 is a clear mark that, after a better antidoping system, athletes needed to be clean, so their performances slowed down. But during the same period there was the explosion of HM and full Marathon, "because clearly everybody can use doping". So, for antidoping is possible to detect the doping of 5000 and 10000 runners, but not of HM and Marathon runners ?

And NOBODY speaks about the development of the training methodology. This development happened for long distances ONLY, because probably, about 1500m, the best methodology is still what we used 30 years ago.

So, for the most part of people, the improvement in some performance depends on doping only. In every human field there is some improvement, BUT NOT IN ATHLETICS. We are still thinking for running a record the only important point is TO RUN. We still hear somebody saying athletes don't need any coach, "because nobody can know his body as the athlete himself". But the problem is not to know your body, but "what you have to do for using in the right way your body", and this is another issue. You know your body also when you are sick, why do you go to a doctor ?

I don't say nobody uses doping. I know many athletes, in any sport, try to increase in artificial way their qualities. My position is different. But I cant accept the idea that, without any evidence, the only fact an athlete can run fast is, for many people, "the evidence" the athlete is not clean.

EPO is prevalent in athletics at least until very recently

- just like cycling. perhaps they are now getting their act together. Therefore you arguments about WRs after 2002

are invalid.

blood passport 2009.......

of course they could use epo when training out of competition