More Kenyan Doping

Renato Canova wrote:

1. For what I know (really not so much), there are no coaches or managers involved.

2. In my opinion, not more than 10% of the "positives" are really cheaters, 90% did some mistake for ignorance

1. That is exactly what Armstrong said. No coaches or managers involved. Yeah right...

2. 90% CLAIM ignorance, in fact 90% knew what they were doing but are rather good at finding excuses: toothpaste, penis enlargement, grandmas vitamin injections, ...

Dude-EPO acts on the marrow to increase RBC production, thereby raising hematocrit. THis is the main mechanism of action, NOT raising hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is a 4 protein structire, each binding a tetramer of porphyrin rings chelating a central iron which may or may not bind O2. RBCs contain many molecules of this. It is the hematocrit which alters viscosity. Just because ya know, youre so clear on the physiology and everything and are breaking it down so well. ALso O2 is always the limiting reagent of aerobic exercise. It may matter slightly more for some people than others, but it is the MAIN limiting reagent for EVERYONE. This is very very basic science. No one with a basic understanding of biochem/physiology would dispute this, are you in high school or something?

To be sure, I love Renato and would give my left nut to sit down over a beer with him and be able to pick his brain about training. I also believe it's possible to run WR's totally clean with the right level of talent, training, patience and a long streak of staying healthy. I just don't believe the amount of depth and inconsistency we see at the top, it makes no sense.

For all those who seem to know better than Renato, who here speaks drawing from personal knowledge and experience? Because, for those with this level of knowledge and experience, I have some very specific questions for you.

We know from studies, that simple "hi-lo" altitude training for 4 weeks already brings significant performance improvements, that lasts for months. Tell me, from your personal knowledge, why it's so incredible that long term lifetime (or over many generations) exposure to high altitudes wouldn't bring the much of the same oxygen enriching advantages, without resorting to synthetic EPO and blood doping? If there is a benefit to living for many generations at altitude, how much more will EPO help? How does the magnitude of performance improvement compare to how much EPO helps the poor sea-level athlete? How does the quality of training affect the potential magnitude of performance improvement?

Keep in mind this thread is an over-reaction to what? Two female marathoners: Salome Jerono Biwott, who ran 2:26, and Jynocel Basweti Onyancha. What do they have in common with sub 26:50 and 2:03-4 marathon runners?

rekrunner wrote:Keep in mind this thread is an over-reaction to what? Two female marathoners: Salome Jerono Biwott, who ran 2:26, and Jynocel Basweti Onyancha. What do they have in common with sub 26:50 and 2:03-4 marathon runners?

err...

2"26 in nairobi is awesome !!!

still, i haven't seen what the dope offense was

whether epo or not

Renato, thank you for sharing. From your account athletes are doing this on their own without the knowledge of coaches or managers they may have (and possibly not knowing themselves.) This is very disturbing because it means no one knows the extent of it - not even the athletes!

wakeupbuddy wrote:

so epo makes horses, rats, mice, and white people a hell of a lot faster, but not east africans that can run some arbitrarily fast time? what a load of crap.

i love your training principles and am very thankful for you having shared them with us, but really, what you are proposing about epo goes against a mountain of scientific evidence of how the body processes oxygen. if what you say is true, we should be able to remove a liter of blood from any top east african and it will not slow them down one bit.

i have read mr. canova´s posts again and again. and i still can´t believe what is written there.

I find it strange that he keeps posting here when the letsrun crowd is so hostile and also so ill informed.

Does he hope he can educate the illiterate masses?

I find it strange that he keeps posting here when the letsrun crowd is so hostile and also so ill informed.

Does he hope he can educate the illiterate masses?

Do scientists believe in this?

"I explained several times that, with the specific attitude and the physiological qualities of the top runners, EPO doesn't give any advantage."

(R. Canova)

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5098005

Also an expert wrote:

Do scientists believe in this?

"I explained several times that, with the specific attitude and the physiological qualities of the top runners, EPO doesn't give any advantage."

(R. Canova)

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5098005

It's never been tested.

storebought wrote:

Given that Kenyans don't need much provocation to start murdering their neighbors with machetes and arrows, I am not betting the farm on it.

I thimk the same could be said of Americans in 1861. That they didn't need "much" provocation to start murdering their neighbours with whatever it was they used to wage a four year war and slaughter almost a million people.

Or can we?

In every training methodology, we try to give to the atletes some STIMULUS, and the reaction to the stimulus is the effect of training. Stimuli can happen in two directions : INTENSITY and EXTENSION.

So, in the case of middle and long distances, we need to increase both volume and intensity, together, in order to give stimuli changing the physiology of the athletes.

If we go to control, after long periods of proper training, the blood values of the athletes, we can see a change, compared with the values they had before, that is EFFECT of training, not the reason of their improvement.

We can have some stimulus only doing something we didn’t do before. When we go to study in the school, the stimulus is to study something new, not to repeat all the life what already we know. About our body, we have the same situation : we need to change our training proposals, increasing both the parameters (volume and intensity) for the first part of the career, and after looking only more at the increase of the intensity, sometimes decreasing the volume a little bit.

TRAINING IN ALTITUDE is one of the most important stimuli in case of middle and long distances.

But it can be a stimulus only when represents a “change” from the normal situation, as in the case of athletes living at sea level.

What does it happen in this case ?

First thing, we speak about EPO, since in too many cases people don’t know really well which is the real task of it.

EPO is a GLYCOPROTEIN produced by kidneys. It’s made with 193 aminoacids, among which 27 get lost at the moment of the secretion. The whole process is called ERYTHROPOIESIS.

After being in circulation, EPO interacts with specific receptors (EPOr) inside the bone marrow, in order to increase the number of ERYTHROCYTES (erythrocytes are without nucleus, in order to have space for including Hemoglobin inside).

In our body, there are not EPO reserves. The EPO synthesis can vary, according to the metabolic necessities. Particularly, EPO production depends on the presence of O2 in the tissues, and only in little percentage on the serum concentration. If tissues don’t receive enough O2, kidneys increase the secretion of EPO, and vice versa.

If you put a person in a room with less O2 (for example, in a hyperbaric chamber or tent), immediately you increase the EPO production.

The normal levels of EPO in the blood are between 2 and 25 mU/ml. In a state of hypoxia, levels can raise 100 – 1000 times more, as answer to the new situation and the new “negative stimulus”.

The increase of the number of RBC reduces the BLOOD FLUIDITY, increasing the CORPUSCULAR PART of blood (Hematocrit). This fact provokes more VISCOSITY with consequent higher ARTERIAL PRESSURE and HYPERTENSION, that can be a great risk in case of dehydration.

EPO is the physiological regulator of RBC production.

Most part of RBC, while there is a situation of hypoxia, don’t work, and the synthesis of RNA can be reduced of 50-70%.

At the same time, other genes are stimulated, such as HIF.

HIF is a protein inside the nucleus having a fundamental role in answering to the requests of hypoxia, and is also fundamental for the synthesis of EPO. When there is hypoxia, HIF grows.

Studies say the EPO levels, at 3000m of altitude, raises after 2 hours from 16 to 22.5 mU/ml, and at 4000m, after 1 hr 30’, from 16 to 28 mU/ml. After coming back, when the stimulus already is over, the EPO levels continue to raise for about 3 hours, and only after this time start to go down, with an average of hematolife of about 5 hours.

One of the effects of Training in altitude is the HYPERVENTILATION. For that reason, there is an increase in

These fact determines a shifting of hematic pH towards alkalinity, going till 7.6 (respiratory alkalosis).

After 2 weeks there is a progressive increase of RBC concentration, with max values after 6 weeks.

The reduced partial O2 pressure in the arterial blood provokes the EPO increase, stimulating the production of new RBC. Together with this change, also the concentration of Hgb and the values of Hct increase.

The acclimatization to hypoxia provokes a reduction of plasma volume, with increase of Hct.

This fact can happen because :

1. The loss of plasma proteins

2. The increase of capillary permeability

3. The dehydration

4. The increase of dieresis

The plasma volume can be redistributed, moving from the vascular bed to the muscle interstice, due to the increase of the OSMOTIC PRESSURE of tissues and a higher CAPILLAR HYDROSTATIC PRESSURE.

So, plasma pressure can be reduced during hard training in state of hypoxia.

We must remember that the exposure to different conditions from the usual always means some stress for every organism.

In this picture, we don’t find many differences with the effects of synthetic EPO assumption. In fact, the final goal is the same : the increase of the number of RBC, consequentely of the Hct.

BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS HAVING THE STIMULUS OF HYPOXIA, OR, WITHOUT THIS, THE STIMULUS OF EPO ASSUMPTION.

Now, with reference to what I explained above, we need to see WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS NO STIMULUS, BUT ADAPTATION.

In fact, people born and living in altitude don’t have any stimulus from that situation. They are not exposed to conditions different from usual, so don’t have any stress in that situation.

That means they don’t have any of the effects I explained above :

1. They don’t increase the number of RBC

2. They don’t have high blood viscosity

3. They have a better ability to extract O2 from air

4. They have a better ability to use O2 in state of hypoxia (for them normal)

And, most important thing, THEY CAN INCREASE WITH PROPER TRAINING THEIR TOTAL VOLUME OF BLOOD OF 25%, BECAUSE OF THE LOW VISCOSITY.

We saw that with the assumption of EPO automatically the viscosity becomes higher. In this conditions, IT’S NOT POSSIBLE TO INCREASE THE TOTAL VOLUME OF BLOOD.

So, what really happens is that we can reach the same level of O2 at disposal of our body or with the assumption of EPO (in this case the total volume of blood doesn’t change), or with proper training in altitude (of course speaking about athletes born and living in altitude, so athletes NOT RECEIVING ANY STIMULUS FROM THAT SITUATION).

If you go to see the names of athletes banned for blood doping, you can see how 99% come from Countries where their training and their life are at sea level. Ifrane, in Maroc, is 1600m, and the effect of altitude is not very important (and in any case the best Maroccans trains there for no longer than 2-3 months per year). Same situation for Russians and athletes from those Countries.

So, the fact some Kenyan can take EPO doesn’t mean EPO can work. Of course, if a Kenyan athlete doesn’t have proper hard training, he can’t increase his total blood volume, and in this case can have some advantage taking EPO ; but this advantage on the performance is LESS than what he can obtain increasing his training in correct way.

To say that an athlete taking EPO can improve her Marathon PB of 10 minutes is a incredible stupidity, if you don’t know anything about the history of the athlete herself. Do you know how many Kenyan athletes try to run a marathon with little training, thinking they are prepared, and after 25-30 km are not able to finish because they finish the fuel ? This idea could be correct, supposing their training can be ALWAYS the same, before and after EPO. The fact is that many new athletes run a Marathon with little training, and finish their marathon jogging in 2:40 (women) or 2:25 (men). After 6 months, going in a group of marathon runners knowing what they have to do, they can finish in 2:26 or in 2:08, and nobody must be surprised.

What is ridiculous is that in this Website the most part of people speak about doping, without connecting this with training. If you believe in training (and you know what training is and its effects, but it seems very few people here can understand), you know how big differences there are between two performances of the same athlete, when prepared and when not prepared (and a lot of Kenyans, without coaches, think to be prepared when are not).

But, of course, everybody has the right to shoot bullshits off his mouth.

you are wasting your time on the illiterate and ill-informed

masses here on LR.

Renato is a poor judge of the Kenyan doping situation because a) He claims/acknowledges that his own athletes don't dope, so he has no immediate data on that level, and b) He has a HUGE vested interest in maintaining the "clean" image of Kenyans in this regard, which is crumbling week by week. His bias is accordingly very strong.

I much more trust Kisorio and Kiptanui on this.

I'm both impressed and amused by Renato's understanding of the Kenyan psyche and his repeatedly banging his head against the wall trying to explain it to a bunch of basement-dwelling yanks who can't grasp that Kenyan and western athletes don't have the same mentality or motivation. Anyway, I have high hopes for the improved blood testing so all the weak nobodies tarnishing the talented hard workers can all be caught.

On a personal level, I have to laugh at those calling Kenyan running talent a "myth". As someone raised in Nairobi but sent to boarding school in the Rift Valley, imagine having your @ss handed to you at cross-country twice a week by an entire school of kids who never seemed to get tired (even by girls from the sister school across) then you'll know if this kids are naturally gifted or not.

Except what Kisorio and Kiptanui said is consistent with what Canova has said recently. He acknowledges there is doping and his speculation regarding the means and manner of that doping is very similar to what Kisorio said. Kiptanui basically said, sure, there are others who are doping, but most athletes do it clean"Yet, no names. No athletes from w/i his group. No direct experience with doping, just the assumption that others are doing it. You know he's been coaching for years, right? Yet, no athlete or doctor names, just anonymous others....IMO, that's garden variety suspicion of rivals.

Noggen wrote:

I much more trust Kisorio and Kiptanui on this.

EPO probably helps everyone. It does not mean everyone is on EPO but some are. Kenya has the same obligation as others to root out the cheats.

Renato, I don't know if you cut and pasted the bulk of that or actually just typed all of that up, but that was awesome. Your use of the English language is awesome. It's always great to hear people who speak English as a secondary language explain something; it's like the brain mapping is slightly different and gives a slightly different perspective.

Although what you are saying goes against so many previous things I've read, I rather like the optimistic potential of what you're saying to be true! Thanks for continuing to post here, I really do appreciate the training perspective and the physiology behind it.