Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder

One of the few decent responses on this thread. How many times are we going to hear about fast marathoners that could waltz in and cruise to victory in 100 mile races such as Western States?

Where are all those 2:16 guys anyway? Basking in the glory of finishing 10th in big marathons?

Talk is cheap- especially when it's not talk from the marathoners themselves.

theohiostate wrote:

One of the few decent responses on this thread. How many times are we going to hear about fast marathoners that could waltz in and cruise to victory in 100 mile races such as Western States?

Where are all those 2:16 guys anyway? Basking in the glory of finishing 10th in big marathons?

Talk is cheap- especially when it's not talk from the marathoners themselves.

Ever hear of this guy named Sage Canaday?

The most important fact in this thread is that almost nobody commenting has actually done an ultra. I can lend a bit of experience here. Unfortunately I can't run a 2:15 marathon so I'm significantly slower than everybody here and my opinion weans very little.

What everybody is missing in this argument is the physiological differences in these events. Clearly elite road racers have the aerobic engine necessary to excel at most running events. What they may or may not have is the musculature in the legs to handle an extreme trail event. Running 27:00 10k on the track requires a huge aerobic engine and oxygen transport system. It also requires almost zero leg strength, particularly quad strength. This is evident if you look at any picture of elite track athletes. And don't show me a string bean with muscle definition because he has zero fat. That doesn't mean he has developed muscles, it means he has little fat.

Running for many hours up and down steep hills, and navigating rocks and roots, etc requires a completely different set of physical abilities. Until you've done one, you have zero idea what happens to your legs. The greatest engine in the world can't run fast when your legs are completely broken down and you're forced to walk backwards down the slightest downhill, or are unable to even jog up an incline because your legs will not respond.

The Kenyans would never be short of breath in an ultra...I think we can all agree here. But these guys are like fragile birds. On certain courses they would stand absolutely no chance, and in most ultras I'd be shocked if their legs held up long enough to win.

The ultra guys with the legs sturdy enough to handle the terrain and a solid VO2 are the ones winning races. Not a common combination. The good news for road racers if they wanted to dominate ultras is that leg strength for ultras can be developed. A huge aerobic engine is something you either have or you don't.

You ultra haters are so clueless. I've been around the sport forever and heard comments like this forever. Go try a real ultra and then come back to your little let's run spankfest and see what you clowns write.

All we need is 2000 folks to put up $50 each for a $100,000 winner take all 100 mile race. Give a two year lag time so all interested marathoners can give it a go if they wish.

If this race is held on the mild terrain of WS 100 then maybe one of these quick folks will hang with Kilian or Olson, maybe they will beat them, but they won't crush them. And they will suffer to do it.

Now if its Hardrock, Forget About it! Kilian, Speedgoat, Hal, Skaggs, et al will dominate. Doubt most pampered elite marathoners could even finish.

Not to beat a dead horse over here but, what makes Killian's 5'7" - 120 lb frame so "physiologically" adept to ultras rather than elite marathoner's frames? Nothing, right? They are the same. It's the training that arrived Killian there. If anything, a slight, non-muscular build has an advantage over ultra long distances. This is shown in Killian... when he has tackled distances well over a hundred miles.

That's interesting since there were no women in the race. Again, you have no idea where he ran his PR.

Should races like Hardrock even be considered Ultra"running"? I mean a lot of walking and hiking is involved. From what I hear most of the "runners" hike over 50 percent of it. I think that is why purist have a problem with ultras is that a lot of it is not actual running.

When your tell your friends and family about how you "ran" a 100 miles non-stop do you ever mentioned that a lot of walking was involved? I bet that is accidently left out of the conversation.

If they changed the name to something like Ultra endurance racing it will make more sense than ultrarunning.

I don't see why Sage doesn't go run a lot of 2nd-3rd tier marathons and take on a career like Michael Wardian (but Sage is faster). I've seen him say you can't be a professional marathoner with his talent, and that's not true. Actually, I don't understand why more 2:15-20 guys don't do this.

sigh1 wrote:

You ultra haters are so clueless. I've been around the sport forever and heard comments like this forever. Go try a real ultra and then come back to your little let's run spankfest and see what you clowns write.

Yup, and then someone like Sage comes along and dominates the top ultra runners even with horrible pacing and limited experience. And in the process proves everything that commenters like us have been saying forever.

BangBus_xc wrote:

Also, need to point out Western States is a downhill course.

Yes, with 18,000 feet of gain.

lonesome runner wrote:

Should races like Hardrock even be considered Ultra"running"? I mean a lot of walking and hiking is involved. From what I hear most of the "runners" hike over 50 percent of it. I think that is why purist have a problem with ultras is that a lot of it is not actual running.

When your tell your friends and family about how you "ran" a 100 miles non-stop do you ever mentioned that a lot of walking was involved? I bet that is accidently left out of the conversation.

If they changed the name to something like Ultra endurance racing it will make more sense than ultrarunning.

LOL. From what you hear? Ever run an ultra? Do you even have a clue about Hardrock?

You might as well go on a nuclear physics forum and post your observations.

From what I understand, it's probably physically impossible to run the entire Hardrock course.

cashews wrote:

so i looked up this tim olson's results:

he ran 50 miles in 6:53:29

this translates to a vdot of...43

yea, enough said.

What if that 50 miles includes thousands and thousands of feet of gain?

Goofball.

Justin91 wrote:

theohiostate wrote:

One of the few decent responses on this thread. How many times are we going to hear about fast marathoners that could waltz in and cruise to victory in 100 mile races such as Western States?

Where are all those 2:16 guys anyway? Basking in the glory of finishing 10th in big marathons?

Talk is cheap- especially when it's not talk from the marathoners themselves.

Ever hear of this guy named Sage Canaday?

I forgot to hit the "quote" button when I posted.

Yep, I've heard of him. He's an excellent runner, but 100 milers are different.

Take Ryan Hall. He has trouble even starting marathons, let alone completing four in a row.

Re-read what Speedgoatkarl said. If anyone knows what they are talking about, it is Karl (if that is really him).

I think it's inevitable that Karl will get his wish if some of these young fast guys follow the lead of Canaday, Max King, Wardian, etc. There will be carnage, much to Karl's delight, but as the learning curve improves, I'd put my money on the road guys. Ryan Hall grew up at 7,000 feet and runs sub 2:06 marathons. I suspect he's run on a few trails around Big Bear Lake. If he abandoned road racing today and devoted the rest of his career to running technical trails at elevation, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't be successful at any ultra distance. It's fun to speculate but we really won't know until some of these road guys start racing Hardrock, Leadville or whatever.

someone already probably cited this article on Kilian Jornet Burgada - apparently the best high altitude utramarathoner right now.

Says he has a vo2 max of 89.5

No info on whether has has tried a low altitude race flat for speed

theohiostate wrote:

Justin91 wrote:

Ever hear of this guy named Sage Canaday?

I forgot to hit the "quote" button when I posted.

Yep, I've heard of him. He's an excellent runner, but 100 milers are different.

Tim Olsen, is that you?