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Sage is pretty fast
Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:01AM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Sage Canaday raced the Terawera 100k down in New Zealand over the weekend and took 1st place. He built up such a sizable lead that, even though he blew up very badly and had to walk all the *downhills* at the end of the race, he still won over a field of top ultrarunners, including 2013 Western States champion and record holder Timothy Olson. Thoughts?
calebb
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:04AM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Road racers are better runners than ultra athletes.

End of discussion.
30 pounds from race weight
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:10AM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Any news on World Class Race walking?

This guy WAS a 2:16 marathoner that knew he could never get much better running in events that the competitive runners care about so he went to the "who cares?" events. There are roughly 75 Americans that are currently competing in real events that would kill Sage in an Ultra without even training for it.
Sage is pretty fast
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:13AM - in reply to calebb Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

calebb wrote:

Road racers are better runners than ultra athletes.

End of discussion.


Agreed. Sage has stated that he was trying ultrarunning because there's not much money in marathoning for a 2:16 guy, whereas he figured he could win bigger races in ultrarunning. How long will it be until ultrarunning is flooded with guys like him that are super-fast, but just not quite fast enough to win the big road races?

On another note, Timothy Olson made a pretty stupid comment afterwards about how he would "love to see" Max King and Sage try 100 milers, because while they can dominate up to 100k, "things change" over 100 miles. I'm guessing that if either of them went for Western States next year and actually focused on it, they could make Timothy's record look pretty slow. The fact that Sage has dominated his last 2 races (both 100k) after experimenting around with this ultra stuff for only a year indicates that the big 100s are his as soon as he wants them. A little trail training and a lot of slow long runs is really all it takes for a 2:16 guy to crush everyone else at these distances.
Sage is pretty fast
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:16AM - in reply to 30 pounds from race weight Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

30 pounds from race weight wrote:

Any news on World Class Race walking?

This guy WAS a 2:16 marathoner that knew he could never get much better running in events that the competitive runners care about so he went to the "who cares?" events. There are roughly 75 Americans that are currently competing in real events that would kill Sage in an Ultra without even training for it.


I'm not so sure about this. Sage isn't far back from Max King in ultras, and Max King could probably beat any American at 50k to 100k on trails. The only other guys that could definitely beat Sage in a ~50 mile trail race without much training are Ryan Hall and Josh Cox (and I'm not convinced on the latter right now). There are at least 20 guys that could beat him with 6 months of specific training, but without the specific trail training, I'm not convinced that any of them would.
Faith based training
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:35AM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Do you realize that if 10 Hansons guys ran a long run that Sage would finish 10th 100% of the time?
DeBeSo
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:43AM - in reply to Faith based training Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Faith based training wrote:

Do you realize that if 10 Hansons guys ran a long run that Sage would finish 10th 100% of the time?


Which one would he beat?
Ithacan
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:50AM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Sage is pretty fast wrote:

Sage isn't far back from Max King in ultras, and Max King could probably beat any American at 50k to 100k on trails.

Other than wondering whether it's simply coincidence that Max and Sage--who trained under different coaches--both spent several years in Ithaca, and are now strong in the long/trail races, I'm wondering: doesn't anyone think there's a specific talent/skill set for such races?

I don't dispute that one's aerobic engine is going to be the greatest determinant of one's success, but is something else, specific to those races, involved?
Faith based training
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:50AM - in reply to DeBeSo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The one that is having a horrible day.
Cutting to the chase
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:53AM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
As track has always shown, different runners have different sweet spots where they are most competitive. A competitive 1500m runner normally doesn't have the same level of competitiveness at 10,000.

Logically, the same thing would apply to longer distances, whether it's the marathon, 50k, 100k, 100 miles or whatever. Assuming each race distance attracts a lot of talented people, you would expect different people to have different relative levels of competitiveness at different distances.

Ultras are attracting more runners and more talented runners, so you would expect the different distances to start to differentiate themselves over time.
Update
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 11:54AM - in reply to Faith based training Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Didn't an ex Hanson's kid just smoke Max King at Chuckanut 50k this past weekend...granted King raced 2 weeks in a row, but that was his choice.

Eventually there will be so good guys running ultras that someone will say "There is no money in ultra running, I'm going back to marathoning!!!"

Ultras are evolving "Weekly" with new faces and new studs...hell Ellie Greenwood was supposed to be the outright best and her record just got smashed by 8 minutes on Chuckanut this weekend.
cashews
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 12:03PM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
so i looked up this tim olson's results:

he ran 50 miles in 6:53:29

this translates to a vdot of...43

yea, enough said.
Koneko
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 12:11PM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Ultrarunners are in the same category as cross-fitters and tough mudders. Complete hacks who can't handle real running events.

Track, XC, and road racing are the only races that matter.
Sage is pretty fast
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 12:22PM - in reply to Update Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Update wrote:

Didn't an ex Hanson's kid just smoke Max King at Chuckanut 50k this past weekend...granted King raced 2 weeks in a row, but that was his choice.

Eventually there will be so good guys running ultras that someone will say "There is no money in ultra running, I'm going back to marathoning!!!"

Ultras are evolving "Weekly" with new faces and new studs...hell Ellie Greenwood was supposed to be the outright best and her record just got smashed by 8 minutes on Chuckanut this weekend.


Yeah, Max lost, but he was pretty close most of the way and just lost touch near the end, a week after dominating 2:12 marathoner Uli Steidl's 50k record at another very competitive 50k by 9+ minutes. I once tried to race hard the week after a marathon PR, personally, and it didn't pan out super well, so I'm not surprised that Max lost.

I think Ellie is legitimately the best, but only at 50 miles+. Her marathon, while very impressive, is not world class, so it's not surprising that she's not 100% dominant at 50k.
Just for the Money
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 12:26PM - in reply to calebb Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I don't understand why more 2:15 to 2:20 guys don't just go out to the North Face race or UROC and just grab and easy $5k to $10k? These races are so easy for fast marathon guys and overall not as hard on the body as a marathon. And guys in that range aren't going to make any money in road races. All they gotta do is go beat up on some slow ultra runners. Walk in the park for some decent money.
Raptured
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 12:35PM - in reply to Just for the Money Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Just for the Money wrote:

I don't understand why more 2:15 to 2:20 guys don't just go out to the North Face race or UROC and just grab and easy $5k to $10k? These races are so easy for fast marathon guys and overall not as hard on the body as a marathon. And guys in that range aren't going to make any money in road races. All they gotta do is go beat up on some slow ultra runners. Walk in the park for some decent money.


Well, obviously, it did happen at UROC this past year. It would've happened at UROC in 2011 as well, as Wardian had a huge lead over Geoff Roes, but he ended up getting lost, which cost him the win. With TNF last year, Sage was leading the race but got lost (notice a pattern here?). Hopefully he will be back this year.

I'm interested to see if any of the sub-2:20 guys take a stab at the Run Rabbit Run 100 in Colorado this year... $10k on the line for the winner, which was taken home by Karl Meltzer last year (some other guys got lost, although the top contenders didn't on the men's side). Karl is a fantastic 100 miler, but he's in his mid-40s now, so it's not hard to imagine him getting beaten.
Just for the Money
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 12:58PM - in reply to Raptured Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I got ya, but seems like most of the more "technical" races from 50 mile to 100 mile are between 7 min/mile and 9 min/mile, which should be easy day for a 2:15 guy. I mean its just some rocks, up hills, down hills and water crossings typically and a little elevation.
giant polka dotted elephant
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 1:41PM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Sage is pretty fast wrote:
On another note, Timothy Olson made a pretty stupid comment afterwards about how he would "love to see" Max King and Sage try 100 milers, because while they can dominate up to 100k, "things change" over 100 miles. I'm guessing that if either of them went for Western States next year and actually focused on it, they could make Timothy's record look pretty slow. The fact that Sage has dominated his last 2 races (both 100k) after experimenting around with this ultra stuff for only a year indicates that the big 100s are his as soon as he wants them. A little trail training and a lot of slow long runs is really all it takes for a 2:16 guy to crush everyone else at these distances.



You will never hear an establishment ultraunner admit that they understimated a roadie's speed or more accurately ***ANYONE THAT RAN FASTER THAN THEM WHEN YOUNGER***. That would be like blasphemy and probably would get the stiff eye from their compatriots so I understand toeing the line. But here we are, what possible reason could he have won? He obviously didn't have a head start training like an ultrarunner for years and years and was too busy going fast on flat ground than bashing his quads for years and years on trail on downhills. The guy had to walk.downhill.in a race. for chrissake. He won because his speed overwhelmed all his ultrarunning experience weaknesses to the point he still won. But let's just keep ignoring the giant polka dotted elephant in the corner of the room says the ultra distance specialists...oops I mean the 100 mile specialists...ooops (from the future) the 200 mile specialists.
WaffleRacer
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 2:12PM - in reply to Koneko Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Koneko wrote:

Ultrarunners are in the same category as cross-fitters and tough mudders. Complete hacks who can't handle real running events.

Track, XC, and road racing are the only races that matter.

This^ For the elites it's a cynical move to make a buck and eak out a "pro" career that would not exist. For the hobby jogger, it's a way to avoid racing or competing.
moron
RE: Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder 3/18/2013 2:21PM - in reply to Sage is pretty fast Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Can we just be reasonable, recognize that "ultra" distances are very new relative to traditional distances, and acknowledge that it will take some time for convergence? Everyone should recognize that all ultra records are going to be smashed repeatedly over the next decade as the interest, prizes, etc, continue to increase, attracting more talent.
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