Barakus Obama wrote:
Doping does work, science and experience have proven this.
You only think that it works, because you believe in the drug advertisements.
Psuedo science does not prove anything, other than it is easy for them to sway small minds and people who don't think for themselves.
If they bray a lie loud enough, which is what they keep doing, a lot of the spaghetti will stick to your forehead.
pity lance armstrong didnt have the benefit of your inside info J.R.
he'd still have his 7 titles today
yyy wrote: EPO also helps
Kenyans. Please.
He never said that it doesn't. He said that he doesn't believe it could benefit the most talented athletes, because he can't fathom that any hormone could have made someone lime Shaheen run significantly faster than he did.
He is saying that an athlete like that is like a train traveling 1m/s below the speed of light and that you can put all the extra rockets and firepower behind it but that train still won't go any faster because it's already go as much velocity as possible. In everything I've ever read from him, he's never claimed that EPO couldn't improve the performances of lesser talented athletes, Kenyan or otherwise.
I think steroid can help everybody, increasing strength and allowing athletes to recovery faster after tough workouts. I never said steroids don't work, with African as with people from other Countries.
About the increase in muscle strength, we can see that, after 1988, in athletics there were NO WR in throwing (Men and Women) and in all the events connected with strength (like sprints, hurdles, jumps and throws) for Women.
About the possibility to faster recovery after hard workouts, steroids can increase the transport of oxygen and provide to rebuild in short time what was destroyed during tough training (also in long distance).
But we continue to speak about EPO, CERA and something similar.
If I don't have any proof that EPO doesn't work, because never I gave EPO to somebody comparing his performances with and his performances without, THE SAME THING IS VALID FOR THE SCIENTISTS. Show me only one research, with top runners (possibly African), demonstrating that EPO can give advantages (that means to have athletes running at top level without EPO, and after running under EPO assumption).
The only athlete we know that ran clean and after took EPO (together steroids) is Kisorio, and the result is that his PB are all before EPO assumption.
I repeat again : if I had athletes (about them I'm sure 100% : I speak about Shaheen, WR holder of steeple, or about Nicholas Kemboi, 26'30" in 10000 after 2 months with me in the same apartment in St. Moritz, or about Moses Mosop, WR holder of 25 and 30 km) at the top completely clean, do you think I can believe they can have advantages taking EPO ? And advantages like we can see in some pseudo scientific article (1 minute in 10000m, that for Nicholas means 25'30", and 8" for steeple, that for Shaheen means 7'45") ?
So, if I don't have any proof, WHICH PROOF CAN HAVE WHO SPEAKS ABOUT THESE ADVANTAGES ?
The fact is that normal people think everybody has the same type of specific talent, and want to relate the performances with what they know. But about talent, they DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.
For a Kenyan, who runs 10.00 in 100m is a phenomen, who puts his shot at 20 meters is Superman. For an American, are good athletes only.
All you speaking from America or other Countries, never in Kenya, speak about something you don't know : there are no researches available with the right animals. The researches are very good, but with wrong animals.
And I tell you something more : if Kenyans could maintain their attitude in training, but could have more professionalism and less general problems (about family, weather, money, medical assistance), ALL THE CURRENT WR COULD BE BETTERED VERY EASY, and with athletes completely clean. In my opinion, we have here talent for running 3'24" in 1500m, 12'30" in 5000, 25'50" in 10000 and 2:01:00 in Marathon. There is this kind of talent, but it's not possible to have a full project, as for example can happen with Mo Farah and Galen Rupp.
J.R. wrote:
You only think that it works, because you believe in the drug advertisements.
Psuedo science does not prove anything, other than it is easy for them to sway small minds and people who don't think for themselves.
If they bray a lie loud enough, which is what they keep doing, a lot of the spaghetti will stick to your forehead.
Ever heard of research done with EPO and placebo groups? Guess which groups had most benefit? One of the athletes confessed that he realised he was on EPO during the research because of his massive improvement and how he always felt in top shape.
Do you think that research like this is all part of a conspiracy theory?
Question deux....
What about steroids? Only an illusion aswell?
Renato:
I'm not accusing Kenyans of widespread use of EPO or CERA.
What I am saying is that they may cheat, just with another substance, like steroids. You have coached many athletes, nobody can be sure 100% of the time that some of their athletes dopes.
To J.R:
I know about a great coach who after his glory days as a coach had just a single runner (modern times, fewer runners etc) but a very serious and dedicated runner. Suddenly he started to improve a lot, the coach was surprised and pleased and gave him harder workouts and the athlete won races and gained new PBs. The coach was thrielled, what on earth had made his athlete suddenly get these fantastic improvements?
The athlete was then caught for EPO.
So J.R, a comment? All a feat of the mind you'd say?
I always thought he was off base with his claim that EPO will help anyone except the most talented runners, and that it won't help them at all.
Oh, please. Talk about absolute nonsense. That statement is on par with J.R.'s that performance enhancing drugs are all a hoax put on by drug companies in order to push their products.
Clearly, there is doping going on in Kenya. Sad to say - very sad to say.
Poverty can drive people to desperate measures, of course. (As can the ego or greed.)
Those who use drugs to enhance their performances are ruining the sport, of course.
I would suggest that the day of the sportsman as a hero or someone to look up to are over.
So you have a high performance engine that already has a compressor and can outperform an engine that has none. You add the compressor to the second engine and now it can perform as well as the first one can.
Let's assume then that the top guys are so fit that something like EPO cannot make then any fitter. (Dick Pound says that idea is "utter nonsense" but we'll assume he's wrong.) That leaves us with a few almost top guys who can benefit from something like EPO and if they take it they'll become like the second engine in the preceding paragraph, i.e., able to match the performance of the top guys. So how do we tell the unenhanced top guys from the enhanced ones?
that's an unfounded claim. I asked him whether a 2:05:37 runner belongs to the very best, but he said something about
2:07 being the cutoff. It is getting a bit ridiculous.
I know it is easy for all of us to bash him now, so I leave at this.
Those Kenyan Teams have a lot in common with those teams in cycling, like - Motorola, US Postal, and Discovery.
Please in 1996 or 97 they started cutting minutes off the world records....I wonder why they didn't have at lease one do it before then?
Renato Canova wrote:And I tell you something more : if Kenyans could maintain their attitude in training, but could have more professionalism and less general problems (about family, weather, money, medical assistance), ALL THE CURRENT WR COULD BE BETTERED VERY EASY, and with athletes completely clean. In my opinion, we have here talent for running 3'24" in 1500m, 12'30" in 5000, 25'50" in 10000 and 2:01:00 in Marathon. There is this kind of talent, but it's not possible to have a full project, as for example can happen with Mo Farah and Galen Rupp.
i had this feeling as well
example is rudisha, who is a masai, not the usual tribe which kenya draws upon for running
i don't think he has much over-distance ability at all ( meaning over 800 ), but he looks to have good speed ( maybe high-44 ) & light frame, but also very importantly, good height
i think there have got to be plenty of similar specimens in the masai - tall & light frame, with also natural talent
some of these masai coud probably be persuaded to do some serious weights & more over-distance work, neither of which rudisha looks keen on
there maybe 1/2 dozen guys in his tribe who coud match his 1'40 & probably more persuadable to do the power/endurance work usually associated with 800 guys, meaning shots at 1'39
as for other end, i read geoff kipsang, mutai & another kenyan went 58'50 recently off a crawl for 1st 5k ( & destroyed lilessa a recent 2"04'45 guy )
they have got to be in current ~ 26'30 shape currently to do that
concentrating only on 10k track, i see no reason at all why they coudn't demolish 26'17
the record shoud probably be not far off 26'00 currently
3'24 woud be feasible for interim distance, but these kenyans really do need to do some power work & hit the weights room
people forget, that biggest thing salazar has done for mo is strength/core work
mo was already a likely close to 13/27 guy when he joined salazar but long way outside top-5 in world in his favoured 5k
on first meeting salazar, he was asked to do some push-ups & collapsed after doing a handful !!!
no core strength at all !!!
no upper body strength & concomitantly i doubt he had any great leg strength either, just typical kenyan running-only training ( been with kenyans in london for a while )
salazar got him doing some hard weights for upper & lower body strength & has got him down to maybe 12'45/26'30 ( + 2 golds )
i don't think salazar has done anything more for him then just this - he's not provided him with any "magic" running training programme - it's been all about developing power ( admittedly not a hard job, as the starting point was 0 power ! )
talent wise, he's still way outside top-5 in the world
i coud definitely see kenyans going under 12'40 en masse if they had this attention, especially some hard power work, but they don't have state-of-the-art multgyms up in iten, or if they do, they are gathering dust...
spot on as usual!
Renato Canova wrote:a) I continue to think that EPO doesn't give advantages to the most talented athletes with the characteristics of Kenyans and Ethiopians (of course, I speak about top runners, and in my idea 2:07 in marathon is not enough for being considered a top runner, if you are Kenyan
renato
as a friend, can i suggest a modification to this statement, which gets you a lot of abuse here ?
i think what you meant to say, is that the top kenyans ( 2"03/2"04 ) have such naturally highly developed cardiovascular systems & likely such naturally high haematocrits ( i assume ~ 50 ) that the "standard" dose of epo, which might get 2"10 kenyans down to 2"07, will likely have small effect ( maybe take 30" - 1'00 off a 2"03/2"04 )
some may think that's worth it, but to get what anyone considers, worthwhile ( 2"00+ for 2"03/2"04 guys ) is going to take huge doses of epo, maybe in region of 2 or 3 times doses the 2"10 dopers take to get to 2"07
the cost is not only prohibitive, but also almost certainly to kill you from a thrombotic event - either an MI or a CVA ( their blood is packed with red cells already, anything significantly more will turn it to slow/non-moving sludge in capillaries )
if these 2"03/2"04 guys are epo'ing, any sensible doc woud also have them on something death-preventing like pradaxa or xarelto
to be honest, you may have a point - at natural 50% haematocrits, blood flow in capillaries may already be at limit ( especially in the under-hydrated states most runners experience whilst training or during a race )
even "standard" doses of epo, increasing the haematocrit may not get much benefit - the rate of flow of the increased number of erythrocytes in capillaries may have slowed to not offer any tangible benefits
i'll just stick with "law of diminishing returns" :
a 2"03/2"04 guy needs much higher dose of epo to get anywhere near the benefits that a 2"10 guy woud - that there is a benefit is not really questioned - just the amount
HRE wrote:
Let's assume then that the top guys are so fit that something like EPO cannot make then any fitter. (Dick Pound says that idea is "utter nonsense" but we'll assume he's wrong.)
What times exactly have Dick Pound ever run??????
I've never heard of him as an athlete, only as a drug tester, promoter, advertiser.
Barakus Obama wrote:
I know about a great coach who after his glory days as a coach had just a single runner (modern times, fewer runners etc) but a very serious and dedicated runner. Suddenly he started to improve a lot, the coach was surprised and pleased and gave him harder workouts and the athlete won races and gained new PBs. The coach was thrielled, what on earth had made his athlete suddenly get these fantastic improvements?
The athlete was then caught for EPO.
I'm pretty sure that Jim Ryun was never caught for EPO.
renato
my friend
can i suggest a "wild" experiment ?!
you should be amenable to sensible suggestions as a scientist as well as coach, hopefully :
it's a given you have some low-27 youngsters of maybe 5'3 - 5'7 & i'll say now, all at an emaciated 115 - 125
try & persuade 1 of them, perhaps the 1 most open to "ideas" of trying some different training
( they have all the endurance training they ever need, it is already near limit of human ability
they don't need any more !!! )
ask him to try something like : reduce endurance training & do 2 or hopefully even 3 days of mostly hard weights ( call him a 120 guy beforehand ) with minimal running to "maintain" endurance ( this will be your hardest decision - how much running to reduce to )
on multigym, lots of legpress+++ ( for sustained drive from gun-to-tape ), hamstring curls++ ( essential for sprint at end - look at kennster's hamstrings !!! ), calf raises ( additional sprint ), some front foot curls to develop symmetry ( don't forget these - balance is vital ) & then benchpress+, shoulder presses+, forward pulls +, pulldowns & lateral, deltoid raises
don't forget abdominal work with sit-ups holding a weight behind the head, to get quality sit-ups & lumbar extensions on the rack with again, weight behind head to get quality, not high reps - you can't do serious overall weights without a strong abdominal/lumbar region
you need a pro weights coach to help you out, but you shoud have one easily available - if not ask AK, but then again, you already probably know a "proper" strength programme with your scientific background & experience
you of course need to ensure a high-protein diet as to take any real effect ( lots more grilled/stewed chicken - get a pro nutritionist, but more chicken/grilled steak will do it ), as i think it's impossible & counter-productive to try & keep their weight at 120 with this heavy weights programme
you have to acknowledge, that for this to have some effect, you shoud look for their weight to go up from 120 to at least 125
your biggest obstacle is the kid worrying about loss of $ from possible poor performance in his season of trying it ( he may get injured or bomb )
you need to persuade your 1/2 dozen group to try this as a method to beat mo/rupp & the now 12'45 ethiopians & that they, the guys doing "all-running" 10k training to pool some prize-money to help out the "experiment guy" to keep him going
quite simply renato, you are not going to beat mo/ethiopians without some serious weights work, no matter how many 26'30 guys we have currently - maybe 1/2 dozen currently ( they won't risk 26'30 from the gun in a gold race )
Renato, thank you for continuing to post here, despite all the idiots.
Every one of our posts is eyeopening for me in terms of what the Kenyans are doing and what they are capable of.
Continue to do great work with them and post on letsrun as often as you can.
Remember, some of us enjoy your posts!!
renatoyou have to take some maths seriouslyi already said wang had ~ 55.5 speed ( from calculator ) before you posted dong's confirmationhttp://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4203011&page=2
Wang Jungxia ran 3'51"9 in 1500m and 2:24 in Marathon, and 8'06" in 3000, and 29'30" with the second half in 14'26", and NEVER could run 400m faster than 55"5 (this was what Dong Li, the WCh in 1500 in 1997, now wife of the head coach of Spain Miguel Landa, explained me when we spoke about the Chinese period of Ma Juren)
for your pups with 27-flat currently, i can offer some numbers, just for what they stay at for 10k, but what "power" can do for them
at 27'00, with
56.00 -> 1'55.8 , 3'43.6 , 5'02.0 , 7'41.4 , 13'06.4
55.00 -> 1'54.3 , 3'41.4 , 4'59.5 , 7'38.6 , 13'03.7
54.00 -> 1'52.7 , 3'39.2 , 4'57.0 , 7'35.7 , 13'01.0
53.00 -> 1'51.1 , 3'37.0 , 4'54.5 , 7'32.9 , 12'58.3
52.00 -> 1'49.6 , 3'34.8 , 4'52.0 , 7'30.1 , 12'55.6
i'll stop there as i think taking 4s off their 400 times is pushing it
might be something in possible improvement on 27'00 with the 400 improvements, but that will need lotta thought...
actually renato, you can find out here
a young 56/27'00 with "power" might benefit not only with speed but better 10k time
( more power means more powerful stride ( more push off ground with each step ) -> longer stride at same turnover -> all distance, from 0 - 10k covered in lesser time )
maybe
52 - 55 / 26'30 - 26'50
neither of those are wr ranges, but might be worth knowing their 1500/3k/5k ability...
That's why the people in this sport who cover for the druggies have helped to ruin it... Americans see people like Frank Shorter or Pre winning big races and they want to do it too... back when there were no drugs Frank used to regularly thrash Africans and Pre got his Olympic fouth place behind 3 Causcasians...
You can't find a picture of Frank losing to an African because it never happened....now we know --- the 2:04 marathoners are quite simply FRAUDS.