Johnny Gray Style 800m Training (400/800 specialists)

I'm having a hard time understanding why no one seems interested in this thread. This could be a valuable addition to the training information available on LetsRun. Too busy posting about post-nuptial shutoff?

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dan_cooley wrote:

I'm having a hard time understanding why no one seems interested in this thread. This could be a valuable addition to the training information available on LetsRun. Too busy posting about post-nuptial shutoff?

Possibly because there is so little out there on it.

Why don't you take a run at contacting Johnny himself and see what you can do.

See if you could arrange to visit him and get trained in his approach and training schedules / workouts.

That's how coaches have done it in the past.

Good Luck.

OP: Johnny Gray's training is too complicated for a discussion on a tread.

I worked out with Johnny's coach (Merle) the same time Johnny was on the track.

Merle and Johnny uses the Igloi method. I am sure Johnny had refined the method to work best for his athletes. Not all athletes should be training the exact same way.

The best thing for you to do is to get a copy of Bob Schul's training manual. Bob won the 1964 gold metal in the 5000m. He does have 800m workouts in his manual. He lays out the Igloi method great.

www.bobschul.net

Good Luck

yeah this is good stuff. i want to hear from coaches of good 4/8 runners (mostly 800)

your best bet would be to find as much info about mihaly igloi. while johnny's training may not follow igloi exactly, this was the foundation for how he was trained and the few examples you state above are definitely igloi workouts. both merle magee and joe douglas were igloi disciples, believing in virtually year-round trackwork and lots of intensity.

hope this helps...

former Merle's athlete wrote:

OP: Johnny Gray's training is too complicated for a discussion on a tread.

Thanks for your post and input.

I should say that I'm not just specifically looking for what Johnny Gray does w/ his athletes (or himself) ... he's just an example of this type of athlete and a coach who coaches one of the most prominent elites in this mold, so I figured using his name and example would get a good response.

There are definitely other guys/coaches in this mold:

Rudisha, who is a 45/1:40 guy (crazy typing that!)

I know Colm has said Rudisha controls a lot of his own day to day workouts and training, but it's hard to really learn much without seeing a large stretch of training, as obviously things build on each other and fit together in a specific way.

Charles Jock, also

-- obviously younger and not quite on the same level yet -- but clearly a strong 400/800 type athlete. Interested in the specifics of what his coach at UCI does with him.

In the past -- Juantorena, others.

My interest is in this TYPE of athlete and training, not specifically Johnny. Interested in all approaches and examples, to see how they compare/contrast w/ my understanding of 800/1500 training.

Thanks again.

And thanks, all -- I'll definitely look into Igloi.

Interesting bc as a distance runner who trained almost exclusively through intervals on the track in high school, I'd long ago sworn off what I understood about Igloi and similar types of training for different methods -- Canova, Hudson, Wetmore, Daniels, etc. being influential on me at various stages of my learning process.

But I've realized in the last couple years how different a type of athlete a true 400/800 guy is from me. I should return to Igloi, obviously.

I just ordered Nick Symmonds' 2012 training log, which should be a pretty good insight into how a modern-day pure 800m specialist trains. That might be another place to look. I'll be writing a detailed analysis of it, but that won't be for a month or two.

I coach both 400/800 and endurance-trained 800 and 800/1500 types.

Johnny Gray was not really a 400-based 800 athlete. He trained in the Igloi method, which has a lot of speed, but not really built on a 400 base, like Juantorena, Rudisha, and also Borzakovskiy. The other thing to consider here is to compete at a high level internationally these days really requires 45-point 400 speed. Rudisha, Borzakovskiy (45.84?), and now Solomon have this, and Jock is close, so even endurance-trained 800 athletes need to acquire this kind of speed--and this "fact of life" may be the real reason why Nick Symmonds is playing with moving up now.

Some 800 athletes using 400-based training, mix distance/overdistance training in with the sprinting. Borzakovskiy does 400 meter training 3 days a week and endurance runs 2-3 days a week. Jock mixes in some 1500m overdistance runs.

But what is really different for true 400/800 athletes is where the endurance comes from. For these people, the endurance comes from special endurance, NOT mileage/endurance/jogging or whatever you call it (I would not call this "strength"). True 400/800 athletes are SPRINTERS, not distance runners that are fairly fast for distance runners, and they train like LONG SPRINTERS. As such, they have more in common with what Clyde Hart does than what Canova or Wetmore do.

For a 400 meter sprinter, special endurance is something like:

4X300; or

3X350

At a high percentage of race pace, with long rest between effors (often 20+ minutes).

A 400/800 athlete (Juantorena in this case) might be doing special endurance like:

3X(3X300) at race pace with long set breaks; or

5X600 5% slower than 800 pace with 10 min or so.

A number of athletes/coaches on letsrun seem to be confused about this, as I've seen plans with multiple days of short sprinting and some long distance (up to 1 hour), but NO race-pace sustained runs. And if you are a sprinter, THE SPECIAL ENDURANCE RUNS ARE WHERE THE ENDURANCE REALLY COMES FROM. You need a bunch of sustained fast runs in the 300-600m range, and that's what you're seeing from Johnny Gray with Solomon.

Northern Star wrote:

I just ordered Nick Symmonds' 2012 training log, which should be a pretty good insight into how a modern-day pure 800m specialist trains. That might be another place to look. I'll be writing a detailed analysis of it, but that won't be for a month or two.

I've been thinking about ordering that -- you should let us know how it is. But Nick Symmonds has long been frank about the fact that he is NOT a 400/800 type athlete. He is an 800/1500 athlete, and so not really the type I'm talking about here.

I mean, Symmonds was running somewhere in the range of 1:45/4:00 (or maybe he'd broken 4 already, I don't remember) right out of d3 college, where he was also reasonably OK at xc. I realize he's not a "distance runner," but you can see that he's a far different athlete from someone like Jock, who has run 1:44, split very fast 400s, and has lingered right around 3:50 for the 1500 as his best overdistance mark.

Symmonds is the type I already understand how to train (or at least relatively speaking).

coach d wrote:

...

Thanks Coach D. I understand that a 400/800 runner is closer to a sprinter than a distance runner, and I think I've made that understanding perfectly clear (hence wanting to learn more about this type of athlete).

But you'd agree the demands of this type of person, if focusing on the 800, are by necessity different from someone who never plans to race seriously at any distance over 400, wouldn't you?

Is the major difference then the volume/frequency of the spec endurance stuff you mentioned? As in, a 400m sprinter NOT moving up would probably put less focus on that type of work than a Solomon type, who is primarily focused on the 8?

400 meter people do special endurance runs (sustained speed, close to race pace, close to race distance).

800 meter people do the same TYPE of workouts, but rather than around 300 meters, these are in the 600-800 meter range. Johnny Gray had Solomon do 700 meters, and apparently a lot at 500 meters.

This type of training is pretty stressful, with high lactate levels being produced, and because of this the training volume is lower. As I recall from what Juantorena wrote about his training, the average mileage was 21.5mpw for his buildup for the Olympic 800, which compares with something like 60 for Symmonds.

It's not that these people are taking it easy. The philosophy is different. If you tried to do Clyde Hart training with Symmonds mileage, you would come down with overtraining before your first race.

You also might want to look at this old thread on Cruz's training http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2996752

or Juantorena

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=4394412&thread=4392357

Juantorena's training in his own words (the only presentation he ever made, I believe, and the same document has been seen in several places on the net) can be found here:

http://www.athleticsinuganda.com/documents/Juantorena%20-%20Specific%20Training%20for%20the%20400%20-%20800m%20Runner.pdf

I ran at a Mid- power house where both traditionally pure 800m training was done as well as 400-800 method that you seem to be asking about.

I think the simplest way to contrast them is to say this:

800:no single rep is too difficult but you do lots of them

More emphasis on DOING LOTS OF WORK

either more reps at slower speeds

or

shorter reps at faster speeds

400/800: each rep is very difficult and close to race difficulty, but you do very few of them

More EMPHASIS ON RACE SIMULATION

Fewer reps, longer intervals, longer rest, higher speeds

EXAMPLES for 1:50 guy:

800: 10x300 at 38 sec 2 min rest

400/800: 3x 1k at 2:35 5 min rest

In the FloTrack interview I referenced, Gray makes a brief, offhand comment about Solomon doing repeat miles. Anyone have an educated guess on what pace, how many, how much rest this kind of strength work would have for a runner of Solomon's specialty?

I'd think a 400/800 type guy would do repeat miles at a surprisingly slow pace based on his 800 PR...that's a lot of volume compared to other types of workouts (the 300s and 500s and 600s we've talked about).

Maybe it's something like what a steady state/long moderate run would be to a distance runner?

Isn't that something like what Igloi preached? Almost every day done in intervals, but sometimes at nearly easy run paces? (I haven't had time to go back to Igloi today, but I seem to recall this.)

(link:

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/250049-2013-Indoor-Track-and-Field-on-Flotrack/video/693748-600m-WR-holder-Johnny-Gray-talks-about-the-off-distance-event

)

Perhaps YOU PEOPLE can explain to me why the 400 "types" go out in 50 seconds flat the first lap then fade down the finishing straight. If they have such blazing speed why don't they run negative splits?????

The trouble with these 400 "types" is they are not trained or conditioned to change speed within a race. Even Coe did this in 1977 & 1978 (think 1978 Euro champs).

These "speedsters" just can't accelerate.....they can only run one pace - all out - until they fade.

You know I am right on this one.