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Kenyano
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 3:42AM - in reply to P White Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

P White wrote:

At 28, Solomon goes from a run of the mill 1.45/1.46 athlete to a 1.42 guy who smashes ARs.

Galen Rupp is smashing out 3.50 miles indoors on his own.

If these guys were Moroccan, you would not believe them.

Letsrun/Brojos - you need to start asking the hard questions.


That's funny!

The reason why people ask questions when it comes to Morrocans is that they probably never heard of such guys before they break into the world scene.
However, as far as Galen is concerned, his times progression is out there, and there is no doubt that he has all it takes to better Lagat's record.

When it comes to Solomon, I have nothing to say about him as I don't know of his times progression.
The Big Bang
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 3:47AM - in reply to ukathleticscoach Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ukathleticscoach wrote:
Also found this:
The Tribunal noted that the IAAF had established that both of Slaney's specimens had been analyzed as having T/E ratios significantly higher than 6:1. The tribunal also observed that Slaney's longitudinal study revealed a previous T/E ratio high of 3:1; meaning that her present ratio, by the most modest of calculations, was more than three times greater than she had ever previously tested.



A 3:1 ratio is an indication that someone had been manipulating her T:E ratio to be within the allowable but 3 times the normal ratio (1:1).

It's significant that Alberto had been sending his urine to Victor Conte in the 80s, but for what? Conte wasn't a doctor, nor was he a scientist. He was a drug dealer.

It's also notable that Marion Jones, like Alberto, also a BALCO client, was sending her urine/blood samples to Conte to be evaluated at Quest Diagnostics for T:E ratios. There is no known medical purpose for T:E ratio testing. There is a known purpose for testing T:E ratios if you are a dpoer planning on compteting in track and field.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/86843-why-you-shouldnt-believe-marion-jones-vol-51
i kinda like running
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 8:07AM - in reply to The Big Bang Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What questions are there to ask? Yes, Duane Solomon's recent success seems a little suspect. But that's all it is; suspect. There is no proof of wrong doing. He will be tested. And if he passes those tests, what can the Brojos do about it? Demand that Solomon undergo more stringent testing procedures than other athletes simply because he's running PRs? Seriously, what questions are there to ask that aren't already being asked?

To me, Galen Rupp is less suspect because his performances have gradually improved each year since high school. He didn't come out of nowhere. He's been running at a high level for years, and just gets a little better each year. He works hard, has a great coach, and avoids injury. Based on things I've read and heard, it seems like Salazar pushes the envelope a little when it comes to legal training methods. But to me he's just a smart coach, like Bill Belichick.
agip
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 8:14AM - in reply to i kinda like running Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

i kinda like running wrote:

Based on things I've read and heard, it seems like Salazar pushes the envelope a little when it comes to legal training methods.


could we quantify this before it becomes something that everyone believes without good reason? What are these sekret envelope pushing tricks?
Justin91
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 8:30AM - in reply to Bum Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Bum wrote:

Agreed, but you have to be seriously naive to believe the lack of positive tests equates to a clean training program.



Sure, but there is a huge difference between "anyone elite is under suspicion of PEDs" to "Salazar runs dirty program." Don't move the goal posts in the middle of the game.
Ho Hum
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 10:41AM - in reply to agip Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

agip wrote:


could we quantify this before it becomes something that everyone believes without good reason? What are these sekret envelope pushing tricks?

Asthma medications and thyroid medications are the big ones people like to point to. The question that raises is, are these performance enhancing, or does extreme endurance training cause thyroid problems/asthma?
rekrunner
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 10:54AM - in reply to P White Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Fair enough. It was getting kind of dark in there.

These are arguably still easy questions, but I get the point about a potential "local fan" reporter bias. Still, for someone who didn't say "doping", all of your hard questions are linked to PEDs.

I would add to your list:
- altitude tent details. How long per day? How many months/years before visible results? Long term progression of improvements? Mo doing the same thing?
- changes in blood values linked to altitude tent? data?
- any real altitude training? Where? For how long?
- the history of their whereabouts? Do they train in remote, unreachable places for long periods of time?

These are Rupp (and Mo) questions. Don't know about Solomon. I would have to think harder about that.


P White wrote:

Where did I say all winners dope? Where did I even say that both Rupp and Solomon dope?

The 'hard' questions are when people who report on the sport but personally know the athletes involve stop being fans with typewriters (or fans video cameras in the case of the Flotrack guys) and start looking for details.

Personally, here is the kind of thing I want to know from Rupp/Salazar:

How often has Galen been tested in the last 18 months? What Percentage of those tests were out of competition?

Is there any clause in your Nike contract to punish you if you got banned for using PEDs?

Can you list all the supplements and medication he takes? Is there medical reasons (allergy/asthma) for all of them?
...
Anyone here slating the people asking questions (NOTE: QUESTIONS NOT ACCUSATIONS) need to take their heads out of their ass*es.
hee hee hee hee
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 10:57AM - in reply to P White Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
proves USADA/WADA/USATF/NCAA are Nike stooges.

we must have U.S. federal cops, lawyers, and scientists own the collection and lab work.

each collection and lab results must be publically posted and available for independent analysis by the research community worldwide.

of course the name of the athlete should be redacted from the public information unless the feds declare a positive hit.

period.
Go Afrika
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 5:45PM - in reply to hee hee hee hee Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Lydiard is God
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 6:04PM - in reply to Canada Coach Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Canada Coach wrote:

My god. Has anyone improved as gradual as Rupp? If you are going to butcher him for a quick improvement, then everyone is fair game. He was fast in HS, a little faster in college and has progressed over many years now as a pro.

Look a little deeper at how they are training. Many of these things have been ignored (especially by North Americans) for years.

1. Increasing your weekly volume with extra non-running cardio training

2. Speed is very important for distance runners. This is something that will be questioned - especially from the (Lydiard / Cardio is the only important thing advocates.

3. Weight training - For years the aerobic first or aerobic only advocates have complained that so many runners are on steroids (which help with hypertrophy) yet can't figure out that strength training might be valuable.

4. Type of weight training - Those distance runners that did weight train did it in such a wimpy and wrong manner (huge reps rather than huge weights) that it was pretty much useless.

5. Dynamic flexibility and plyometrics - ignored by most distance runners

6. The great use of properly place aerobic intervals, fartleks, etc to increase aerobic development.

7. Spending all year (rather than just the last 6 weeks before a meet) to work on speed.

8. Technique - In the past, distance runners felt technique was useless, but Salazar has quickly figured out that is just as important, or maybe more, than it is for sprinters.

9. North American distance runners have only recently used altitude to their advantage.

So rather than yell "PED" everytime someone runs fast, take a close look at what is going on.


I would like to take issue with the oft-repeated and completely erroneous assertion that Lydiard neglected pure speed. In fact, he advocated training like sprinters using very short, sharp bursts with complete rest between reps,to get your legs turning over as fast as possible. You can do this all year as it is alactic.

Modern Lydiardists also acknowledge the excellent advice to lift heavy. And what are his famous hill bounding workouts but plyometrics. Furthermore, he paid attention to technique. He got a top sprint coach to work on Peter Snell's form even after he won 800m gold in 1960.

Go check out Keith Livingstone's Healthy Intelligent Training book. It's all in there. He ran with Lydiard's guys in the sixties.
dd
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/31/2013 12:00PM - in reply to A Duck Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Kudos to Patrick White, both for starting this thread, and for having the guts to put name, story, and face to it. Back on page 4 or so "A Duck" basically called him out to do so, so it would of course be reasonable to wonder when he'll let us know his name, tell us who he is, and provide a picture.

I'm a fan of track, drove 10 miles out of Glacier National Park last year just to get cell phone coverage to check on the Olympic results, and was hugely happy that Rupp medaled. But I also know the history of PEDs, and before every major admission/bust there has been a steady march of negative tests, indignant apologists, and people willing to not consider that their hero is capable of something dishonest.

One question I have: does the project (Project Believe?) where people provide samples to be banked for future testing still exist? If so, does Rupp participate? For me, that substantially raises my faith in someone's being clean, but it's of course no guarantee.
Citizen Runner
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/31/2013 12:36PM - in reply to dd Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

dd wrote:

One question I have: does the project (Project Believe?) where people provide samples to be banked for future testing still exist? If so, does Rupp participate? For me, that substantially raises my faith in someone's being clean, but it's of course no guarantee.

The USADA website has a few pages under "My Victory" that includes profiles of the athletes from Project Believe (Clay, Felix, Gay, Trotter, and Williams) but it doesn't have any details such as more rigorous out of competition testing. http://www.usada.org/MyVictory/ If there is still such a program, it seems to me that USADA is missing the boat by not making it higher profile. Maybe the Brojos could do some hard hitting investigative journalism and find out what "the good guys" are doing.
Ras
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/31/2013 5:48PM - in reply to Sports Shorts Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
i which they would promote the positive things the sport have to offer. Is casimir loxsom, Ajee Wilson and Mary cain on drugs too. RIDICULOUSNESS.
P White
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/31/2013 10:15PM - in reply to Ras Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Please you are kidding me Ras?

They put an enormous effort into promoting people like Ajee WIlson and Mary Cain.

F*ck, why do people think that asking for the sports stars to come aggressively and vocally against PEDs is a bad thing????????????
Godfree Kiptitkum
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/1/2013 12:17AM - in reply to P White Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
One thing is for sure: Shumacher runs a clean operation. No one with him has PRed for years.
Daniel komen folks
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/1/2013 2:01AM - in reply to Godfree Kiptitkum Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Godfree Kiptitkum wrote:

One thing is for sure: Shumacher runs a clean operation. No one with him has PRed for years.


Ouch, how about that Jäger? I think Jerry will also produce some great performances this year.
A Duck
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/1/2013 6:42AM - in reply to Salazar > Lydiard Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Salazar > Lydiard wrote:


Canada Coach wrote:

My god. Has anyone improved as gradual as Rupp? If you are going to butcher him for a quick improvement, then everyone is fair game. He was fast in HS, a little faster in college and has progressed over many years now as a pro.

Look a little deeper at how they are training. Many of these things have been ignored (especially by North Americans) for years.

1. Increasing your weekly volume with extra non-running cardio training

2. Speed is very important for distance runners. This is something that will be questioned - especially from the (Lydiard / Cardio is the only important thing advocates.

3. Weight training - For years the aerobic first or aerobic only advocates have complained that so many runners are on steroids (which help with hypertrophy) yet can't figure out that strength training might be valuable.

4. Type of weight training - Those distance runners that did weight train did it in such a wimpy and wrong manner (huge reps rather than huge weights) that it was pretty much useless.

5. Dynamic flexibility and plyometrics - ignored by most distance runners

6. The great use of properly place aerobic intervals, fartleks, etc to increase aerobic development.

7. Spending all year (rather than just the last 6 weeks before a meet) to work on speed.

8. Technique - In the past, distance runners felt technique was useless, but Salazar has quickly figured out that is just as important, or maybe more, than it is for sprinters.

9. North American distance runners have only recently used altitude to their advantage.

So rather than yell "PED" everytime someone runs fast, take a close look at what is going on.


Post of the day.

Most distance coaches I talk to think Salazar's crazy for doing the things you mentioned. But it all just seems common sense if when you're not coming from a distance running background.

Also interesting to speculate about who his influences were and who he acquired the knowledge from for points #2, 7, and 8.



This is basically the right approach, understand the whole approach, and so much of it is out there.

What I am positing, is rather than approach from the "this could be doped" perspective, approach it from "what are all the pieces that they are doing that make this possible clean." And there is a ton of info out there.
odelltrclan
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/2/2013 4:42PM - in reply to The Big Bang Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The premise for this whole thread is nauseating. Then the LRC praise the person who starts the thread and treats him like some celebrity. This is a joke. The message boards here is so full of drug accusations it is almost worth not coming here to read.

LRC seems to be the place where you can slander someone without any recourse for those athletes. Here are some comments for you Brojos:

1. Everyone knows that drugs are a problems in a wide variety of sports.
2. One of those sports happen to be running and track.
3. How difficult is it to question anyone who is doing well and "asking the hard questions" about doping? Is it really asking hard questions, or just, for the billionth time, slandering someone's name without proof, other than, wow look at their somewhat sudden improvements.

Constantly accusing people without proof does nothing the sport, it only denigrates it. We all know there are problems, but, in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. You get hard proof, talk away, otherwise, stop slandering at every corner because you can hide behind internet aliases.

Duane Solomon got a new coach, Johnny Gray, and was headed for what might has been his final Olympics. Two factors that had a huge role in where he is now.

Galen Rupp has been improving slowly over many years. Two years ago he gets Mo Farah as a training partner. They have both benefited greatly from that relationship as well as the science that Nike provides.

Until you have actual proof, STFU and stop thinking that every time someone gets to a certain level it is time to start "asking the hard questions" (translated: Accusing athletes of cheating).
odelltrclan
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/2/2013 4:44PM - in reply to The Big Bang Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The premise for this whole thread is nauseating. Then the LRC praise the person who starts the thread and treats him like some celebrity. This is a joke. The message boards here is so full of drug accusations it is almost worth not coming here to read.

LRC seems to be the place where you can slander someone without any recourse for those athletes. Here are some comments for you Brojos:

1. Everyone knows that drugs are a problems in a wide variety of sports.
2. One of those sports happen to be running and track.
3. How difficult is it to question anyone who is doing well and "asking the hard questions" about doping? Is it really asking hard questions, or just, for the billionth time, slandering someone's name without proof, other than, wow look at their somewhat sudden improvements.

Constantly accusing people without proof does nothing the sport, it only denigrates it. We all know there are problems, but, in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. You get hard proof, talk away, otherwise, stop slandering at every corner because you can hide behind internet aliases.

Duane Solomon got a new coach, Johnny Gray, and was headed for what might has been his final Olympics. Two factors that had a huge role in where he is now.

Galen Rupp has been improving slowly over many years. Two years ago he gets Mo Farah as a training partner. They have both benefited greatly from that relationship as well as the science that Nike provides.

Until you have actual proof, STFU and stop thinking that every time someone gets to a certain level it is time to start "asking the hard questions" (translated: Accusing athletes of cheating).

We all know it happens. We all worry that our favorite athletes may have used or are on drugs and hope they are not. We all want a clean sport. "Asking the hard questions" on message boards does nothing but ruin the discussions.
Canada Coach
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/2/2013 6:45PM - in reply to Lydiard is God Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Lydiard is God wrote:


Canada Coach wrote:

My god. Has anyone improved as gradual as Rupp? If you are going to butcher him for a quick improvement, then everyone is fair game. He was fast in HS, a little faster in college and has progressed over many years now as a pro.

Look a little deeper at how they are training. Many of these things have been ignored (especially by North Americans) for years.

1. Increasing your weekly volume with extra non-running cardio training

2. Speed is very important for distance runners. This is something that will be questioned - especially from the (Lydiard / Cardio is the only important thing advocates.

3. Weight training - For years the aerobic first or aerobic only advocates have complained that so many runners are on steroids (which help with hypertrophy) yet can't figure out that strength training might be valuable.

4. Type of weight training - Those distance runners that did weight train did it in such a wimpy and wrong manner (huge reps rather than huge weights) that it was pretty much useless.

5. Dynamic flexibility and plyometrics - ignored by most distance runners

6. The great use of properly place aerobic intervals, fartleks, etc to increase aerobic development.

7. Spending all year (rather than just the last 6 weeks before a meet) to work on speed.

8. Technique - In the past, distance runners felt technique was useless, but Salazar has quickly figured out that is just as important, or maybe more, than it is for sprinters.

9. North American distance runners have only recently used altitude to their advantage.

So rather than yell "PED" everytime someone runs fast, take a close look at what is going on.


I would like to take issue with the oft-repeated and completely erroneous assertion that Lydiard neglected pure speed. In fact, he advocated training like sprinters using very short, sharp bursts with complete rest between reps,to get your legs turning over as fast as possible. You can do this all year as it is alactic.

Modern Lydiardists also acknowledge the excellent advice to lift heavy. And what are his famous hill bounding workouts but plyometrics. Furthermore, he paid attention to technique. He got a top sprint coach to work on Peter Snell's form even after he won 800m gold in 1960.

Go check out Keith Livingstone's Healthy Intelligent Training book. It's all in there. He ran with Lydiard's guys in the sixties.


Lydiard did like speed, but not all year around. This is what Salazar has improved upon
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