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rekrunner
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 4:40PM - in reply to P White Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The questions you think need to be asked are not "hard".

It's easy to say that all winners dope. "Hard" questions require critical thinking.


P White wrote:

At 28, Solomon goes from a run of the mill 1.45/1.46 athlete to a 1.42 guy who smashes ARs.

Galen Rupp is smashing out 3.50 miles indoors on his own.

If these guys were Moroccan, you would not believe them.

Letsrun/Brojos - you need to start asking the hard questions.
Wait Wait What?
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 5:33PM - in reply to agip Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

agip wrote:


Wait Wait What? wrote:


agip wrote:


You seriously equate Alberto with Ferrari? That doesn't pass the giggle test. Salazar has had one athlete 'caught' - Mary Decker - and the test that got her was subsequently discontinued because of its numerous false positives.

get in touch with reality.


Wait, what? Are you suggesting that Mary Decker was clean? Seriously?


__

Due to its history of false positives, especially among older female athletes, the (T/E) ratio test has since been revised and laboratories now also run a carbon isotope ratio test (CIR) if the ratio is unusually high.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Decker


You didn't answer my question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question
agip
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 6:02PM - in reply to Wait Wait What? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Wait Wait What? wrote:


agip wrote:


Wait Wait What? wrote:


agip wrote:


You seriously equate Alberto with Ferrari? That doesn't pass the giggle test. Salazar has had one athlete 'caught' - Mary Decker - and the test that got her was subsequently discontinued because of its numerous false positives.

get in touch with reality.


Wait, what? Are you suggesting that Mary Decker was clean? Seriously?


__

Due to its history of false positives, especially among older female athletes, the (T/E) ratio test has since been revised and laboratories now also run a carbon isotope ratio test (CIR) if the ratio is unusually high.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Decker


You didn't answer my question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question


__

not sure what 'suggesting' means. I give it 40/60 odds that she was innocent.
Bum
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 6:28PM - in reply to agip Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

agip wrote:

not sure what 'suggesting' means. I give it 40/60 odds that she was innocent.


Well thank you for that eloquent way of saying you have no effing idea.
agip
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 6:39PM - in reply to Bum Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Bum wrote:


agip wrote:

not sure what 'suggesting' means. I give it 40/60 odds that she was innocent.


Well thank you for that eloquent way of saying you have no effing idea.


well follow the train of thought - some other bloke implied Rupp is dirty because... Rupp is coached by Salazar, who coached a dirty athlete. Since to my knowledge Decker is the only salazar athlete to test positive, he must have been referring to mary. So...I was rebutting his absolute freaking guess with my absolute freaking guess.

You have to be a serious cynic to use the shadow of decker to darken Rupp.
Bum
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 6:41PM - in reply to agip Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Agreed, but you have to be seriously naive to believe the lack of positive tests equates to a clean training program.


agip wrote:


Bum wrote:


agip wrote:

not sure what 'suggesting' means. I give it 40/60 odds that she was innocent.


Well thank you for that eloquent way of saying you have no effing idea.


well follow the train of thought - some other bloke implied Rupp is dirty because... Rupp is coached by Salazar, who coached a dirty athlete. Since to my knowledge Decker is the only salazar athlete to test positive, he must have been referring to mary. So...I was rebutting his absolute freaking guess with my absolute freaking guess.

You have to be a serious cynic to use the shadow of decker to darken Rupp.
TLW
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 6:53PM - in reply to Bum Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
So many blind believers. These are the same people who 10 years ago thought Lance's victories were from good old hard work.

Don't be naive.
Justin91
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 6:56PM - in reply to TLW Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You want me to ask the questions? All right, I'll ask it. Boxers or briefs?
jlburnsjr
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 7:58PM - in reply to Bum Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You are right that nothing is certain and PEDs have permeated endurance sports. However, I do believe that both Ryan Hall and Meb are absolutely clean. Say what you want about their faith, but I do believe they are both genuine in their beliefs and both would consider PEDs morally wrong.

Hall did run a wind aided 2:04:xx in Boston but also ran 2:06:xx in London. While Meb has not broken 2:06, he is truly world class and can put up consistent results which are virtually unmatched (Olympic silver, NYC champ, and a gutsy 4th in London). If either of these guys has EVER doped then I've lost all faith in the sport BUT for now I do think our sport is clean with rare exception.
hall > rupp
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 8:07PM - in reply to jlburnsjr Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

jlburnsjr wrote:

You are right that nothing is certain and PEDs have permeated endurance sports. However, I do believe that both Ryan Hall and Meb are absolutely clean. Say what you want about their faith, but I do believe they are both genuine in their beliefs and both would consider PEDs morally wrong.

Hall did run a wind aided 2:04:xx in Boston but also ran 2:06:xx in London. While Meb has not broken 2:06, he is truly world class and can put up consistent results which are virtually unmatched (Olympic silver, NYC champ, and a gutsy 4th in London). If either of these guys has EVER doped then I've lost all faith in the sport BUT for now I do think our sport is clean with rare exception.


Agreed. I pointed out Hall on page 4.
Wait Wait What?
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 8:30PM - in reply to jlburnsjr Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

jlburnsjr wrote:

You are right that nothing is certain and PEDs have permeated endurance sports. However, I do believe that both Ryan Hall and Meb are absolutely clean. Say what you want about their faith, but I do believe they are both genuine in their beliefs and both would consider PEDs morally wrong.

Hall did run a wind aided 2:04:xx in Boston but also ran 2:06:xx in London. While Meb has not broken 2:06, he is truly world class and can put up consistent results which are virtually unmatched (Olympic silver, NYC champ, and a gutsy 4th in London). If either of these guys has EVER doped then I've lost all faith in the sport BUT for now I do think our sport is clean with rare exception.


I agree with you on Hall and Meb.

I do not agree with your final statement. It is probably the other way around. Why do I think so? Simple human nature.

1) There are many, many Kenyans/Ethiopians... for whom prize money and appearance fees are the difference between riches and fame (in their own country) and poverty and anonymity.

2) Even if not all people would take PEDs to go from poverty to riches, without a doubt many if not most would.

3) For most of those who would hesitate the known reality that others are cheating is usually enough to push them over the edge - "Hey, if others are going to cheat then it is not really cheating when I do it. It's just leveling the playing field."

4) The Africans have made a complete mockery of distance world records (and the Jamaicans of sprint world records) over the last 20 years or so.

5) Suddenly the Americans (including Farah) have made this huge leap to beating the Africans at their own game. Is Rupp THAT much more talented than Shorter, Rodgers, Pre, Virgin...? His times suggest that he is in an entirely different galaxy than those folks. It is all too improbable.

6) Drug testing is always behind drug innovations.

7) The kings of the sport profit from new amazing records across the board. What happens to the popularity of the sport (already very low) when records can no longer be broken? Better let them get broken then, by any means necessary.

Sorry, but simple human nature and the evidence at hand make the odds pretty darned high that cheating by drug use is rampant. Sadly, it is hard to see why our sport should be any cleaner than cycling.
Galen_Rupp_1
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 8:32PM - in reply to rupp-certified saladbar Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:


Galen_Rupp_1 wrote:
6. The great use of properly place aerobic intervals, fartleks, etc to increase aerobic development.



Is this something new???

The rest of your post makes sense.


I know that fartleks and intervals workouts are not new. What I'm suggesting is that many people now are realizing that aerobic development is not just Lydiard type long runs, but a combination of things. Many distance runners still do a couple of hard interval workouts a week and go on distance runs the rest of the days, but many people thinking outside the box realize that the body may recover better while doing intervals that are somewhat less than "hard".
P White
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 8:40PM - in reply to rekrunner Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

rekrunner wrote:

The questions you think need to be asked are not "hard".

It's easy to say that all winners dope. "Hard" questions require critical thinking.



Where did I say all winners dope? Where did I even say that both Rupp and Solomon dope?

The 'hard' questions are when people who report on the sport but personally know the athletes involve stop being fans with typewriters (or fans video cameras in the case of the Flotrack guys) and start looking for details.

Personally, here is the kind of thing I want to know from Rupp/Salazar:

How often has Galen been tested in the last 18 months? What Percentage of those tests were out of competition?

Is there any clause in your Nike contract to punish you if you got banned for using PEDs?

Can you list all the supplements and medication he takes? Is there medical reasons (allergy/asthma) for all of them?


I want to know this because then I can say "F*ck, Galen Rupp has been tested 5 times out of competition in the last 8 months and 3 times at races. He passed them all and his biological passport is clear. That is a lot of evidence that he is clean. Also, Alberto released a list of everything his athletes take and it all looks legit. Nike has added a clause to all their contracts stating that if they get banned for doping, they are liable to pay back all their salary and bonuses from the previous 2 years.

Rupp is committed to testing.
Alberto is committed to keeping his guys clean.
Nike is committed to looking after the repuation of the sport.

I can believe these guys."

I REALLY want Rupp to be clean but I want some openness from them.

Rupp should want a clean sport and see the advantage of openness.

Anyone here slating the people asking questions (NOTE: QUESTIONS NOT ACCUSATIONS) need to take their heads out of their ass*es.
Ehdnfnhrnfnd
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 9:49PM - in reply to Wait Wait What? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Quote

4) The Africans have made a complete mockery of distance world records (and the Jamaicans of sprint world records) over the last 20 years or so.

5) Suddenly the Americans (including Farah) have made this huge leap to beating the Africans at their own game. Is Rupp THAT much more talented than Shorter, Rodgers, Pre, Virgin...? His times suggest that he is in an entirely different galaxy than those folks. It is all too improbable. (Quote)

.
Sorry but 5 does not hold together logically. In th 10000, there is one American who is running 30 seconds faster than guys like Mark Nenow. Another, Solinsky is 20 seconds better. Its not a 'different galaxy'. It's progress. What's odd is how few good Americans there were for so long. It was basically just Meb (who you say was clean and 9 seconds better than Nenow). Rupp is not breaking world records. He is 30 seconds away from the 10000 WR. He happened to beat the world record holder, who is in decline. It's like saying an NBA player is on drugs if he is now better than Tim Duncan or another former MVP. it does not mean that player is better than Duncan ever was.

Also, is 17 seconds from the 5000 world record. He, Rupp, Ritz and Teg are a few seconds faster than Moorcroft was at 5000. What is so improbable about that? Have we learned nothing in 30 years?

As for 4,sure, some of the records are suspect. Maybe there was a lot of EPO use when they were set. Maybe some guys were just "in another galaxy" (Bolt, El G, Komen). It does not mean that everyone who is better than the guys from the 70s/80s/90s is a drug cheat.
TrailRunnerZach
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 10:58PM - in reply to rupp-certified saladbar Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Exactly! So if somebody gets an A+ and top score in the school when they normally get B's and C's does it mean there cheating? Or could it possibly mean the studied a hardier, studied more correctly and got what they deserve even throw in some talent or pure knowledge. Rupp runs 8:03 3k and 13s in high school then dominates college level and gets a silver medal and now just because he progresses even more to run 3:50 he is doping? You dont even know these people your accusing of these things. Your just fueling there fire. I hope takes down webbs and other american records cleanly and begins to dominate.
Bum
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 11:10PM - in reply to TrailRunnerZach Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I have no reason to suspect Hall or Meb - their associations have not linked them to trouble. That of course doesn't prove anything, but it doesn't give reason for doubt either. Rupp I cannot put into that same group. That too doesn't mean he is dirty, but his associations raise suspicion.

Unfortunately I don't believe there is a current clean WR for any distance from 60 indoors to the marathon. None. Maybe some ARs are clean. I sure hope so, especially Webb's. Webb's up's and down's do not feel like the sort of career one would get with a well-established doping program. Same for Hall.
wejo
co-founder
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 11:33PM - in reply to A Duck Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
A Duck's post is too long to respond to. I thought I responded to parts of it yesterday but I guess I never hit post.

Since I didn't hit post maybe I should address one main point:

You wrote.


No, there is no magical way to know who is clean and who is dirty. And you know you are being half baked with that defense. You also know in your guts that Rupp is clean. You've made "hey!" here and profited off his successes. You looked him in the eyes and asked him questions in the mix zone, you freaking know in your guts that he is clean.

You've looked the man in the eyes. And you know he's a good dude, and you know in your gut he is clean. And yet you get off on this delusional, viral Lord of the Flies you've created.


I guess you don't get it.

I, nor you, don't know if Rupp or anyone else for that matter is clean. That is the whole point of a thread like this.

It's like Paula Radcliffe told me, "Ultimately you only know about yourself (being clean)."

I said I would quit the sport if Paula was ever dirty. Do I know she is clean? Absolutely not. I hope she's clean. I believe she's clean, but I don't know it for a fact. That is why threads like this are allowed to exist. People can speculate all they want about Paula being dirty.

If you don't get that main point, then you're clearly never going to agree with me.

As for filters and people making immature jokes about Rupp's name we implemented a filter years ago for this. If anyone has any questions about this email me directly at weldonjohnson@letsrun.com. He is the only athlete we've ever implemented such a filter for. We definitely don't want a "hate crime type culture" as you implied.

Rupp and Oregon and Nike are the New York Yankees of the sport. There is going to more positive and negative said about them just because of the position of prominence they have. That comes with the territory.

I think they can handle it but there are going to be differences of opinion on what is acceptable. Take for example the term "Rupp certified". It was invented on these boards and I think it was quite clever. People close to Rupp didn't think so.

"A Duck" you said,

As you showed yesterday, you are both only too happy to foster more lies and idiot speculation.

and

Yesterday was a pathetically perfect example. Questioning Rupp's progression? You covered it every step of the way! You could not be any more phoney and deceitful.

What lies did I foster? What deceit did I create? All I did was state that a thread like this was perfectly legitimate. I stand behind that today as well. If you don't see that point then there really isn't any point in debating. Differences in opinion are going to exist.
Lighten up Francis!
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/28/2013 11:53PM - in reply to A Duck Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Is A Duck's post a record for length?

Must be an ultrarunner. Probably on the track. Round and round and round and round and round and round....

Wow. That post actually makes ultrarunning look purposeful.
Brit
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 12:39AM - in reply to hall > rupp Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Well there are PEDS and then there are TUEs. People tend not to regard TUEs as "morally wrong" but no one seems keen to reveal what TUEs they have.

That would be a start for "transparency". I would love to know how many of the athletes I compete against have TUEs and what they are; but just knowing they are on something would be a start.
ukathleticscoach
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 1/29/2013 3:32AM - in reply to Wowza Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Wowza wrote:


agip wrote:
Due to its history of false positives, especially among older female athletes, the (T/E) ratio test has since been revised and laboratories now also run a carbon isotope ratio test (CIR) if the ratio is unusually high.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Decker


If you look at the annotated link [14], nowhere does it say that there was a history of false positives, only that the carbon isotope ratio test is more accurate hence the 4:1 ratio as compared to the old 6:1 ratio.


Also found this:
The Tribunal noted that the IAAF had established that both of Slaney's specimens had been analyzed as having T/E ratios significantly higher than 6:1. The tribunal also observed that Slaney's longitudinal study revealed a previous T/E ratio high of 3:1; meaning that her present ratio, by the most modest of calculations, was more than three times greater than she had ever previously tested.

How many female athletes are on the pill, probably more than half and they were not all failing tests

As for Rupp his mile time is reasonably in line with his 5km/10km time although you could argue he was more of a distance type
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