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brownsmith89
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 8:50AM - in reply to brownsmith89 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
defenders have been proven wrong before.

there were people who were ferociously defending lance armstrong, saying he was clean, that he never failed a drug test, that he was naturally a very good endurance athlete as a teenager, that he was the greatest endurance athlete of all time, that usada was out to get him out of anger, etc.

they've disappeared. the defenders were proven to be flat out wrong.

if i say that tom cruise still looks young, i think he had plastic surgery. is that "mudslinging"? he has millions of dollars, and other celebrities have admitted to surgery before. am i not allowed an opinion?
Alberto Contadoro
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 9:16AM - in reply to Alberto Contadoro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Note:
My above post is a general post. About drugs in sport in general, and athletics in particular.
It is was not directed at Rupp or Farah or Solomon or anyone else, by any other means that they are top class class athletes where fame, glory and money is involved. I know nothing more than the general poster about these particular athletes.

Also speaking in general. It is not the athletes fault that they start doping, it is the system. Who would blame a poor boy who spent all his resources the last 10 years at becoming the best runner possible. Encouraged by coaches and parents yelling everything is possile if you want it enough. Then he finds learns that it really isnt true after all, by himself, by a manager, coach or agent.
In addition studies has shown that a large majority of us would use a drug if it was undetectable and gave the advantage for winning an olympic medal. The same studies even show that more than 50% would use the drug if it was seriously detrimental to their own long term health. Humans are obsessed at gaining competitive advantages in every part of life.

Go after the system, the IAAF, the coaches, the agents and the managers. Not the athletes. The athletes in general want an equal playing field without doping, the reality is just not like that at the moment. Just have in the back of your head that 90% of the best are doped. And do your son or daughter a favor, dont have them play cards into sport, because everything isnt possible.
basic physiology
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 9:54AM - in reply to Lydiard is God Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Lydiard is God wrote:


basic physiology wrote:

Actually, 10x30-40m with full rest is the most anaerobic workout a runner can do.


Err, but it would be alactic, anaerobic, stressing only the immediate energy release systems, with no lactate buildup.




What is so bad about lactate? Do you even know what lactate is? Obviously not.
Barakus Obama
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 9:56AM - in reply to basic physiology Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

basic physiology wrote:


Lydiard is God wrote:


basic physiology wrote:

Actually, 10x30-40m with full rest is the most anaerobic workout a runner can do.


Err, but it would be alactic, anaerobic, stressing only the immediate energy release systems, with no lactate buildup.




What is so bad about lactate? Do you even know what lactate is? Obviously not.


Lactate is energy, but lactate buildup means it will take longer time to recover, therefore he doesn't want that.
basic physiology
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 10:33AM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It's a speed workout, it doesn't matter if there is a lactate buildup. And anyway, with long recoveries the lactate is used for that recovery.

Anyway, even with short sprints, there is a lactate build up because creatine will only supply half the energy of a 30-40m sprint and the rest is glcyogenolytic/glycolytic ATP with lactate production.
wejo
co-founder
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 10:45AM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Like P White I'm bowing out on this thread.

Very few people in this thread have said they think Solomon or Rupp are doping.

There is a huge difference between saying "we should ask questions" and "they are doping."

Yes a few people have said on here they think one of the athletes may be doping. Big deal. That is their right.

There are many more others who think these athletes are clean.

And you know what? We have now way of proving it either way. Yet "A Duck" and others somehow divinely want us to know the "truth."

I say it is far healthier for a clean sport to let people air their questions and sometimes their accusations. When someone on here says "I know so and so is doping." that usually is just sports fan hyperbole meaning "I think so and so is doping."

We got crucified by people for letting threads go on Lance Armstrong. And you know what? The people who said he was doping were right.

At the same time, I let threads go with people saying I was doping. I know I'm clean, but I don't have a problem with people saying they think my progression wasn't natural.

When Cathal Lombard drilled me in a 10k in the UK, people got on here and said he must be on something. I remember laughing and thinking that was crazy. Yet I didn't shut down the thread because I disagreed with it. And you know what he was proven to be a cheat.

The point is I don't know if an athlete is clean or dirty and neither do you. It is ok to have the discussion. Do some people get a little overheated. Of course. That is how sports fans work.

This thread shows what we know about sports. Fans don't like their own teams or players being criticized. Ray Lewis is a thug, for many outside of Baltimore, but to those in Baltimore he's "passionate". Dallas Cowboys are "America's Team" to some and a joke to others.

It's ok to ponder about athlete "X" and drugs but if you ponder about athlete "Y" it is inappropriate.

Take out the names. "RE: AAAAAA suddenly world class and BBBBB soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions!"

That to me is a perfectly legitimate thread. I have not hidden behind this view point. Some of you disagree. That is fine, but just be consistent with your logic.
Bloodhound
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 11:06AM - in reply to wejo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Wejo, I've always found fault around the notion that someone's "progression" is proof or even an indication of doping. Most of the busted runners in our sport have had gradual progressionsm and most of the people who have major breakthroughs (uneven progressions) are as clean as Mother Theresa. Rupp's sudden breaktrough in the last 18 months isn't proof of anything, even though he has had a sudden breakthrough in his speed (1500) and his finishing kick, going from top 8-10 championship material to a world beater. With Rupp and the NOP crew the TUEs and thyroid meds are a flag, and a bona fide reason for suspicion. Also, Rupp's coaches associations with Victor Conte, Dr. Stray-Gundersen (EPO expert) and Mary Slaney are also valid reasons for suspicion. Doesn't make Rupp or Salazar guilty, but is sure doesn't look right.
wejo
co-founder
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 11:33AM - in reply to Bloodhound Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Bloodhound wrote:

Wejo, I've always found fault around the notion that someone's "progression" is proof or even an indication of doping. Most of the busted runners in our sport have had gradual progressionsm and most of the people who have major breakthroughs (uneven progressions) are as clean as Mother Theresa. Rupp's sudden breaktrough in the last 18 months isn't proof of anything, even though he has had a sudden breakthrough in his speed (1500) and his finishing kick, going from top 8-10 championship material to a world beater. With Rupp and the NOP crew the TUEs and thyroid meds are a flag, and a bona fide reason for suspicion. Also, Rupp's coaches associations with Victor Conte, Dr. Stray-Gundersen (EPO expert) and Mary Slaney are also valid reasons for suspicion. Doesn't make Rupp or Salazar guilty, but is sure doesn't look right.


I got back on here to make one more point I forgot to post and I saw your post.

First I'll address your post. I have never understood the thyroid issue as being evidence of doping. If you get a legitimate TUE for thyroid medication you can use it. It is not doping. Now some want to believe that thyroid medication can give an unfair advantage and should be banned, but if it is allowed and you have a legitimate TUE for it, I don't see how that is doping. I would argue if you think it gives an unfair advantage then you should push for getting the TUE rule for thyroid changed. I think athletes should be transparent about their TUEs. Some may think thyroid medication is against the spirit of sport which I am fine with. Then the rule needs to be changed. I don't want the person with the best doctors to win, I want the best athlete to win.

On another point, Mary Slaney is a drug cheat according to the IAAF. Everytime I write that I get nasty emails but according to the IAAF her ban was never overturned and she is a cheat. Alberto did coach her when she got her ban. Those are facts from what I can discern:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Decker#Doping_controversy

Yes I know Mary and her crew dispute the T/E ratio test.

Does that mean Alberto doped her? Of course not. Athletes dope all the time without their coach's knowledge.



The point I was going to make before seeing Bloodhound's post was that the the "The Super Hot" on Letsrun on the homepage is automatically generated by a computer. If a thread gets so many hits in a certain time period it goes to the homepage. I didn't agree with the title of the thread yesterday about Goucher "Slamming" Alberto but the poster made it that way. Yet "A Duck" somehow wants to use that as evidence of my bias.
Bloodhound
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 12:03PM - in reply to wejo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

wejo wrote:I have never understood the thyroid issue as being evidence of doping. If you get a legitimate TUE for thyroid medication you can use it. It is not doping. Now some want to believe that thyroid medication can give an unfair advantage and should be banned, but if it is allowed and you have a legitimate TUE for it, I don't see how that is doping.


Wejo. It might help if you familiarize yourself with the functions of the thyroid and the hormones secreted by it. Anyone who is manipulating their testosterone and/or EPO production is also changing the secretions of the thyroid hormones.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5019164&page=2

The thyroid hormones are inextricably linked to the pituitary and hypothalamus, all of which produce hormones necessary to growth, strength and metabolism. As someone else said, once you push one button the other buttons need pushing too.

From the pituitary:
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH)
Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH)
Luteinizing Hormone (LH) responsible for secreting testosterone (get where they are going yet?)
Growth Hormone (HGH)
ACTH the adrenocorticotropic hormone (also involved in testosterone production)

From the hypothalamus:
Gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) (also involved in testosterone production)
Corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH) acts to release ACTH

Bodybuilders who take steroids or HGH upset the balance of the other hormones in the body. The body senses too much here so it tries to balance things by cutting back on secretions of complimentary hormones elsewhere which will eventually wreck the body. Along comes modern science so that doctors who are monitoring androgenic/anabolic hormones will also manipulate and restore FSH, TSH, CRH etc. to their normal levels.


http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Pituitary.html
wunderer
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 3:05PM - in reply to Bloodhound Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
If you're taking EPO and your thyroid is all jacked up, aren't you feeling lousy all the time? From what little I know about hypo and hyperthyroidism, it affects people differently, but it isn't conducive to elite training/racing (aches, fatigues, tiredness, sleeplessness, weight loss or gain, etc).
Barakus Obama
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 4:34PM - in reply to wejo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

wejo wrote:

I didn't agree with the title of the thread yesterday about Goucher "Slamming" Alberto but the poster made it that way. Yet "A Duck" somehow wants to use that as evidence of my bias.



So thats why the "Adam Goucher slams Salazar" was renamed "Adam Goucher regrets training with Salazar" on the frontpage? Found that to be quite weird.
WBennett
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 6:41PM - in reply to P White Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Stop hating these guys give 100% every single day and fast times come as a result. Just because somebody's good doesn't mean they're on drugs
Moronic
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 6:42PM - in reply to Alberto Contadoro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Alberto Contadoro wrote: interesting posts.


So the IAAF don't put an upper limit on hematocrit levels, just query the variation?, and the UCI have a more effective screening process because they do?.

The cyclists seem to think it's more effective anyway:

Cycling - At least it's not distance running

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18145
Sponge
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/7/2013 9:37PM - in reply to P White Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Nope. Why do you say you "really" want Rupp to be clean? What would that validate for you? And who would be listening when you would say he passed 5 out of competition tests in the last 8 months and 3 at races? Aside from those folks bored and thus reading this thread, no one. This whole approach is like Lyndon Johnson's take on making his opponent deny what no one could believe. Look it up. And the knowing references to Jos Hermans? Truly pathetic. Study the results from Hengelo 2004 and let's hear the answers to the hard questions.




P White wrote:


rekrunner wrote:

The questions you think need to be asked are not "hard".

It's easy to say that all winners dope. "Hard" questions require critical thinking.



Where did I say all winners dope? Where did I even say that both Rupp and Solomon dope?

The 'hard' questions are when people who report on the sport but personally know the athletes involve stop being fans with typewriters (or fans video cameras in the case of the Flotrack guys) and start looking for details.

Personally, here is the kind of thing I want to know from Rupp/Salazar:

How often has Galen been tested in the last 18 months? What Percentage of those tests were out of competition?

Is there any clause in your Nike contract to punish you if you got banned for using PEDs?

Can you list all the supplements and medication he takes? Is there medical reasons (allergy/asthma) for all of them?


I want to know this because then I can say "F*ck, Galen Rupp has been tested 5 times out of competition in the last 8 months and 3 times at races. He passed them all and his biological passport is clear. That is a lot of evidence that he is clean. Also, Alberto released a list of everything his athletes take and it all looks legit. Nike has added a clause to all their contracts stating that if they get banned for doping, they are liable to pay back all their salary and bonuses from the previous 2 years.

Rupp is committed to testing.
Alberto is committed to keeping his guys clean.
Nike is committed to looking after the repuation of the sport.

I can believe these guys."

I REALLY want Rupp to be clean but I want some openness from them.

Rupp should want a clean sport and see the advantage of openness.

Anyone here slating the people asking questions (NOTE: QUESTIONS NOT ACCUSATIONS) need to take their heads out of their ass*es.
jonesy johnson
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/8/2013 1:40AM - in reply to Sponge Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
So what if some people are suspicious of Salazar and his runners? Of course, we do not know either way whether his runners are using PEDs. But speculation is permitted and understandable. Salazar himself has done plenty of speculating about others, so why would he be immune from being on the other end of it? Salazar knows that this is part of the game he plays.
Tru B Tole
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/8/2013 3:14AM - in reply to Bloodhound Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Bloodhound wrote:


wejo wrote:I have never understood the thyroid issue as being evidence of doping. If you get a legitimate TUE for thyroid medication you can use it. It is not doping. Now some want to believe that thyroid medication can give an unfair advantage and should be banned, but if it is allowed and you have a legitimate TUE for it, I don't see how that is doping.


Wejo. It might help if you familiarize yourself with the functions of the thyroid and the hormones secreted by it. Anyone who is manipulating their testosterone and/or EPO production is also changing the secretions of the thyroid hormones.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5019164&page=2

The thyroid hormones are inextricably linked to the pituitary and hypothalamus, all of which produce hormones necessary to growth, strength and metabolism. As someone else said, once you push one button the other buttons need pushing too.

From the pituitary:
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH)
Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH)
Luteinizing Hormone (LH) responsible for secreting testosterone (get where they are going yet?)
Growth Hormone (HGH)
ACTH the adrenocorticotropic hormone (also involved in testosterone production)

From the hypothalamus:
Gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) (also involved in testosterone production)
Corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH) acts to release ACTH

Bodybuilders who take steroids or HGH upset the balance of the other hormones in the body. The body senses too much here so it tries to balance things by cutting back on secretions of complimentary hormones elsewhere which will eventually wreck the body. Along comes modern science so that doctors who are monitoring androgenic/anabolic hormones will also manipulate and restore FSH, TSH, CRH etc. to their normal levels.


http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Pituitary.html




As has been said before, all of Salazar's athletes are not on thyroid replacement therapy.
rekrunner
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/8/2013 3:33AM - in reply to A Duck Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You are still over-reacting.

You throw around a lot of extreme terms like "slander" and "hate crime", but these things simply did not happen.

Anyway, I guess you really meant "libel", and not "slander". In any case, for speech to qualify as slanderous, or libelous, you have to show elements of malice, and possibly that there was damage to his reputation. It might be hard to argue that a poster named "Lick my love pump" actually caused damage to an athlete's reputation.

You also have the wrong expectations about standards of a public forum. Such behavior did happen all the time in pre-internet days, in every bar, and locker room. Was anyone of the public ever convicted for uttering the same kinds of statements? A largely unmoderated forum is a similar cross-section of the public. Do you have any examples where any bar customer, school child, or message board poster was actually convicted for expressing his unfounded opinions about the sexuality or doping of an athlete? I think a conviction of slander or libel in these circumstances is unprecedented in any free country.

Which forums do elite athletes contribute? Actually we might never know how many contribute anonymously. But I think the real reason they don't contribute to this forum is the same reason they don't come to my house or go bowling with me. They have their own life. Why should they mingle with the public? They already have public life, and likely enjoy their privacy when they can.


A Duck wrote:
Free speech doesn't cover slander.

Behavior that has been permitted here, would never be permitted pre Internet.

You're not taking the context of how small this sport is in the USA.

There is indeed a real reason you don't see elite athletes contributing to these forums.
brownsmith89
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/8/2013 8:30AM - in reply to Alberto Contadoro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Alberto Contadoro wrote: It is not the athletes fault that they start doping, it is the system. Who would blame a poor boy who spent all his resources the last 10 years at becoming the best runner possible. Encouraged by coaches and parents yelling everything is possile if you want it enough. Then he finds learns that it really isnt true after all, by himself, by a manager, coach or agent.


if what you're saying is true, then that really sucks.

i guess there would have been a snowball effect over the decades, as technology improved and prize money increased.
B 4 Real
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/8/2013 10:27AM - in reply to WBennett Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

WBennett wrote:

Stop hating these guys give 100% every single day and fast times come as a result. Just because somebody's good doesn't mean they're on drugs


Just because you really, really want the world to be a fairy tale doesn't mean that it is.
the real problem
RE: Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions! 2/8/2013 10:37AM - in reply to Alberto Contadoro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Alberto Contadoro wrote:

Note:
My above post is a general post. About drugs in sport in general, and athletics in particular.
It is was not directed at Rupp or Farah or Solomon or anyone else, by any other means that they are top class class athletes where fame, glory and money is involved. I know nothing more than the general poster about these particular athletes.

Also speaking in general. It is not the athletes fault that they start doping, it is the system. Who would blame a poor boy who spent all his resources the last 10 years at becoming the best runner possible. Encouraged by coaches and parents yelling everything is possile if you want it enough. Then he finds learns that it really isnt true after all, by himself, by a manager, coach or agent.
In addition studies has shown that a large majority of us would use a drug if it was undetectable and gave the advantage for winning an olympic medal. The same studies even show that more than 50% would use the drug if it was seriously detrimental to their own long term health. Humans are obsessed at gaining competitive advantages in every part of life.

Go after the system, the IAAF, the coaches, the agents and the managers. Not the athletes. The athletes in general want an equal playing field without doping, the reality is just not like that at the moment. Just have in the back of your head that 90% of the best are doped. And do your son or daughter a favor, dont have them play cards into sport, because everything isnt possible.



I agree with much of what you are saying. However the real problem is the brainwahsing dogma that makes people believe in so called PED's like you do.

You're 50-55% hematocrit figures are typical, but misguided. Do you realize what that means in terms of lower plasma percentage, think about it, it's simple aritmetic. Now think about how the heart is supposed to pump all of that and ask yourself how it can be more efficient at pumping all of that around the system instead of natural numbers, whereby heart rate and stroke volume can give you all of the oxgyen you need and more. You just have to learn how to use it efficiently.
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