Which T&F athletes who retired 30 years or more could still medal against today's best?

deanouk wrote:It was the perfect race for him. Not only did he have EL G pacing and drafting him all the way to the home straight, but his lap times were as efficient as it possibly could be in reality (as opposed to some laboratory scenario that doesn't exist), 55.9, 56.2, 56.1, 55.2. No tweaking or evening out splits is going to get it down a further 0.4.

idiot

it isn't a perfect race with laps varying from low-55 to low-56

take the splits for 220y all around & that will get enough variability to get his 3'43.4 to "near 3'43.0"

even at start of race he starts nearer the back than the front & sprints pretty hard to get behind hicham - too big a field leading to hard an initial sprint

off course he wasn't going to beat hicham that day, but both couda claimed faster as hicham's 3'43.13 converts to 3'26.60 with standard 1.08 conversion & i have no doubt he'd claim he was in better shape than that in '99

Captain Leg Speed Velocity wrote:

deanouk wrote:

Exactly. He can't because there aren't any.

He has a limited grasp of the subtleties of language, and is confused over the difference between basic leg speed and speed endurance.

Leg speed? Leg speed? Did you really just use the idiotic term 'leg speed'?

Perhaps you should really be concerning yourself with leg speed velocity. That's the most important speed. Just slightly less important is nose speed as well as thumb speed. Leg speed is WAY down on the list of important speeds for racing.

SPEED IS SPEED MORON!

Foot speed velocity is much more important.

Your train of thought is ridiculous. You run what the pace dictates and what you need to run in order to win.

Cacho ran a 12.9 to win in 92 OG in a 3:40. By your reasoning he should have been quicker than Straub over the last 100m as his pb was faster. It doesn't work like that.

Straub rarely if ever ran on the European circuit and his pb of 3:33.68 was from 79, NOT 1980, running practically solo in Potsdam. He also beat Wessinghage (a 3:50 miler in 79) in the European Cup in 79, who himself went on to run 3:31.58 the following year. Using your reasoning now, if Straub could beat Wessinghage (a 3:31 man) in a fast finish, then Straub could also have run 3:31. And certainly if Harold Hudak can run 3:31 then so could have Straub.

Straub's fastest time in 1980 was 3:36.59 and that was in Dresden in May. He did not run in any of the European circuit races before or after Moscow. Does that compute with you? Your tiny intellect would have him down as only capable of 3:36 I presume!

In fact he was in far better form in Moscow than in 79, probably due to PEDS as he trained in same stable as Beyer, who was later named on official Stasi lists as being on a state drug programme. He was, naturally or not, more like a 3:31 guy in Moscow. Reinforced by the fact he was able to run 12.5 compared to Ovett's 12.6; and remember Ovett went on to run 3:31 a few weeks later. Ovett and Coe were both clearly capable of breaking 3:30 in 1980.

I don't believe EL G or Lagat were legitimate 3:26 guys, but even if they were, neither produced anything as fast as 12.1 at the end of any race.

I looked at the 97 World Champs 1500 final, the slowest final EL G was in, 3:35.8, and compared it to the 3:38.4 of Moscow.

EL G's laps went 61.2, 61.0, 54.4, 39.2. His last 800 was 1:48.8, last 700 1:33.6, 400 - 52.5, 200-26.6, 100- 13.5

From 1000m his 100 splits went ~ 13.2, 13.3, 12.6 (his fastest 100m segment), 13.1 & 13.5

Coe's laps were 61.9, 63.3, 54.5, 38.6. His last 800 was 1:48.6, last 700 1:33.2, 400 - 52.2, 200- 25.0, 100- 12.1

From 1000m his 100m splits went 13.6, 13.6, 13.6, 12.9, 12.1

If you look at Ngeny's closing splits in Sydney in his 3:32.1 they are inferior to Coe's 3:32.5 splits in LA.

Ngeny - last:- 800 - 1:52.7, 700- 1:37.0, 400- 54.1, 300- 40.2, 200- 26.5,

100- 12.8

Coe - last: - 800-1:49.8, 700- 1:35.6, 400- 53.2, 300- 39.2, 200- 25.7.

100- 12.7

Or their 100 splits from 700m went: -

Ngeny - 15.7, 14.7, 14.0, 14.2, 13.9, 13.7, 13.7, 12.8

Coe - 14.3, 14.1, 14.2, 14.1, 14.0, 13.5, 13.0, 12.7

Which means in 6 of the last 8 100m sections Coe was quicker in races that were overall only 0.4 apart.

Surely if Ngeny was a 3:26 man and Coe only a 3:30 man then, as the point which you made about Straub implies, Ngeny should have been quite a bit quicker than Coe in the closing stages? In fact he was slower.

ventolin^3 wrote:

idiot

it isn't a perfect race with laps varying from low-55 to low-56

take the splits for 220y all around & that will get enough variability to get his 3'43.4 to "near 3'43.0"

LOL! Are you serious? The pacing he had to the bell went 55.9, 56.2 and 56.1. Thats a range of 0.3. No other mile record in modern history had such efficient pacing. The fact that the last 440 was slightly faster at 55.2 is pretty irrelevant, as by that point most mile record runners are out on their own trying to just hold on to the pace they've been given up to the 3/4. Ngeny had the advantage of EL pacing him on the last lap, which would have offered some drafting and a target to hang on to. That would have jacked up his last lap by a good 0.5. Without it, his last lap would have been nearer to 56, pretty much the same time he had for all 4 laps.

Compare to Coe's 55.3, 58.0, 58.6, 55.4 or Cram's 57.2, 57.3, 58.6, 53.2 and then tell me Ngeny didn't have the most efficient pacing of any top mile race ever.

deanouk wrote:

My next question was going to be about his mileage, but unfortunately the person behind had already walked up to the table and so no luck with that one.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo

moron

your peabrain only just realised this ?

idiot

cacho's run was in a different universe to straub's

he finished the race with a 50.4 !!!

straub's last lap was high-52

like all east germans

i never said it was

a 3'50.56 worth "only" 3'33.4 with usual 1.08

wessinhage was hugely better in '80 in region of 2s

straub's form in '79 only indicates a 3'33+

he beat wessinhage in a photo-finish 3'36.27 to 3'36.40

moron

he beat a low-3'33 wessinhage in '79 NOT a 3'31.5 one

no

moron

there is absolutely nothing to indicate straub was anything significantly better than his 3'33.6pb in moscow

moron

i offered him his pb ability not his sb ability

i have no problem in believing he couda just about dipped into the 3'32s in his moscow form on the circuit, but he wasn't going to blaze anything eye-opening

a high-3'32 guy can finish a 3'38 in a 12.5

what on earth can a 3'26 finish a 3'38 ???

idiot

they were likely on drugs the whole career, NOT just '80

& your peabrain not realise beyer never came close to his '78 form again

what proof or more like drivel are you offering clock-wise for straub being better in '80 ???

drivel

he was never a 3'31 guy

east germans prided themselves on breaking wrs

if straub had been in near wr shape that year, his bosses wouda set up a record attempt for him

they didn't

drivel

ovett had series of 800s in his legs, had been celebrating heavily after his gold & just plain ran a bad race

no one in their right mind reckoned straub woud have beaten ovett beforehand

at worst he was expected silver

no

maybe dipping into 3'30s but not breaking it

moron

just as legit as coe with 1'41.7 in era of blood-doping

moron

they didn't run 3'38 races to show it

when his pb was 3'29.3 going in NOT 3'26.0 but soon to be 3'28.9

moron

hicham had virtually same last 800/700 & 400 as coe in a race which was nearly 3s faster !!!

idiot

hicham also took the race by the balls from 600 out & destroyed a guy who ran 3'28.9 just 1/52 later !!!

coe in '80 wouda been slaughtered if he'd tried to follow hicham same as cacho who musta been in 3'28.9 shape here at worst & not a miraculous improvement to this in zurich 1/52 later

moron

do you actually have any clue at all ???

noah was a huge underdog going into the race, despite that 2'11.9/3'43.4

no one expected hicham to lose, not even probably noah

he just ran the race dictated 100% by hicham

noah just tucked in behind running whatever hicham set & got the shock of his life when hicham didn't react when he'd caught up with him 50m out

noah's race & splits were completely dictated by hicham

he made no effort whatsoever to make a move at any time until the death

the aim was only 1 thing

WIN

moron

it wasn't a perfect race

noah already had had to sprint the 1st 200 hard to get ahead of the big field & that is of no help

drivel

no one ignores any splits when assessing a race

& that is countered by noah who had only a 3'30.3pb from the previous year entering completely unchartered territory

on converted mile of 3'43.4 = 3'26.85

he made biggest break-thru in history in 1st race below 3'30

it's obvious in last lap he didn't know when to make a move at this unknown pace for him

he made one just at end of bend, narrowing gap, got rebuffed slightly with hicham extending again then again made another 50m out, again narrowing gap but then again hicham slightly extended to the end

he didn't make the 1 decisive move expected but twice, a wasteful expenditure of energy

if he'd been able to run it again, no doubt he wouda just waited for the 1 kick at maybe 50 or 60 out & got closer

this was tactic which won him gold the next year

i still don't see him winning this race anyway he ran it but, he didn't run anywhere close to his perfect race

dont think a blood transfusion gives the same performance boost as hgh,epo,cortisone,testosterone and whatever else

so they're not really comparable ventolin

3-29.xx is possible

3-26.xx i doubt it

Nonsense. You compare just 1 split time, 400m. Straub's last 100 was faster (12.5 to 12.9) which shows he had more left. If you look at their last 800m, there was little difference; Straub 1:48.9, Cacho 1:48.5. And Straub's race was 1.5 sec faster overall, though this is negligible at this level. Moreover Straub ran the last 800 from the front with no drafting, while Cacho had some drafting in the pack. Certainly not in different universe.

And your point is? Not running regularly on the circuit in paced races meant the middle distance guys had little opportunity to run fast tt's.

Yes there is. The fact he was able to beat Ovett, something Wessinghage never managed, in an Olympic final, and run Coe fairly close.

You really are a tool. You pollute endless pages on here surmising how much faster countless (usually Kenyan) athletes could have run based on obscure and usually tenuous impressions made by yourself, yet you offer Straub exactly what he ran in 79 ( in what was practically a front running time trial)

Do you actually know ANYTHING about this race? No, of course not.

He front run through 400 in 52.6!, 800 in 1:52.0 and 1200m in 2:51.0. and was 4 secs ahead of the next guy. He also ran a 1:46.0 (to win) the next day.

That 1500 is easily worth a 3:31.

I never said they weren't. It was obvious Beyer was on something in 78 as was Straub in 80. Both were at champs behind the iron curtain and both likely to pass the drug testing as a result. You jump to conclusions and put words into people's mouths. Try to be less ignorant.

Crap. So had Coe 5 races in his legs. He was still able to run a 12.1 at the end. Ovett was in top form, ran a good tactical race but just had his kick taken out of him as the last 700 was at 1:46 pace. He'd never run in a race like that before. Others had always bided their time and waited for a burn up over the last 300.

And no one in their right mind reckoned Beyer would beat Coe & Ovett in Prague either.

More rubbish. Just as you claim Ngeny's Sydney run was dictated by EL G in front of him, then Coe's run in Moscow was equally dictated by what Straub did. Straub went with 700 to go. He could have easily gone with 800 to go and then Coe's last 800 could have been sub 1:47 in a 3:36 race.

All of Coe's finishing splits were faster than EL G's in a race that was 2.6 slower. Yet both Coe's last 200 and 100m were 1.5 secs faster than EL G's. Coe was speeding up over the last 200 whereas EL G was slowing down. That means Coe had unused energy and could have covered that last 800m a lot faster.

What? What are you trying to say here? It is just more irrelevant nonsense.

You could make that argument for every race there has ever been, numbskull!

Coe did the same thing latching on to Scott and Abascal in LA, so what?

Having both run a 3:32 race with Coe having covered the last 800m almost 3 secs faster, he is still able to out-sprint Ngeny over the last 100 and 200, despite the latter having EL G as a moving target.