Will following Daniel's formula lead me to sub 15 5k?

I have a question for some of you guys who have been using the Daniels plan.

A lot of the consensus on Daniels in this thread and some of the others is that when you get into the meat of phase 2 and phase 3 that it's pretty tough and really wipes you out. I'm curious what some of you that experienced that did for your phase 1 or base period?

I'm a HS coach training a Junior girl and we are just starting to loosely follow Phase 2 but will skip to Phase 3 in a couple weeks. I think our base phase might have us a little more prepared than what some do or maybe if you follow the book. We've done 14 weeks where we've gradually build from 35 to 50 miles and do long runs in the range of 8-10. Each week we also alternate some form of tempos, for the last 2 months it's either been a 6 mile run at 6:45ish pace(M-Pace or what Daniels suggests to drop T pace to if not taking breaks) or we do 4-5x1 Mile at T Pace 6:25ish with 1 min rests. Then we do some form of a heavy speed workout each week, either 12 8-15 second hill sprints or 100s and 150s doing about 12 sprints total. On this training she has already PRd in 1600(From outdoor PR 2012 of 5:22 to 5:12 Indoor, 3200 outdoor PR 2011 11:41 to 11:31 indoor). She's an 18:25 XC runner.

For week 1 the book has 1000s at T pace but we just did 5x1 Mile since that what we've been doing and then did 6x800 at I pace yesterday, she said this was tough but doable. Going to do our first Mile Pace(R) workout Friday or Saturday, 4x(2x200, 1x400).

So I guess my main question is anyone who struggles with Daniels or really feels like Phase 2/3 is super hard or wears them out, have you done base periods like this? or did you do more of general running with some strides?

Thanks,

Good luck to everyone!

It's ironic her times are similar to the times I ran when following this program as well. Phase III back in the day used to make me feel pretty wiped...but it's geared to do so because the program is built around the tapering phase (IV). This is theoretically where she should peak/feel more rested and strong. I like how you brought down the volume of the workout from 1,000's to 800m reps. That's the key with following daniels formula...listening to the body. Following the program verbatim can send someone right into burn-out just an err of caution (any signs of this back off and make sure she's eating enough cal's). In my opinion it's good that you seem to be tailoring the program in response to how she's feeling. Like I said in an earlier post the skeleton of the program is not bad...listening to how she's responding and tweeking can be really beneficial in terms of moving to the next level.

My own experience mirrors what you describe. Had some success with Daniels initially (17:xx 5Ks), but workouts were very hard on me. Then eventually discovered Lydiard, the importance, and potential, or aerobic base and then followed Lydiard's base with Daniels-type workouts and had much more success, and the workouts were much more reasonable (not borderline overtaxing like they had been).

I agree with your theory about people who get injured from Daniels. Look at this thread - you've got guys skipping phase 1 to get to the fast stuff, and then wondering why they got injured repeatedly.

The other area I feel people go wrong with Daniels is going for the max in every workout, and not easing/progressing into workout volume. Just because he says the max of an I workout is 8% of weekly mileage, doesn't mean that a guy doing 60mpw should be doing 8x1000m, I pace, as one of his first interval workouts. 5k worth of I work is good enough for world champions running 80-100 mpw, yet 17-18 minute Masters runners, or Joe 6-pack feels the need to run 8k worth. I've made the same mistakes, but I think I've learned from them.

Train, don't strain would be a good guideline.

So you're in the 14th week? How many weeks did you have your Junior girl run just easy mileage?

My base looked like this...right out of the book:

Phase 1:

Weeks 1-3 - 50mpw (no strides, no long runs, easy running)

Weeks 3-6 - 56mpw (strides 4 times per week, easy running, long runs of 14 miles)

I ended 2012 averaging 50mpw...so that's what I decided to start with.

I upped to six more miles per week because he says that after three weeks you are allowed to increase mileage by the number of days/training sessions that you run. I run only six days per week.

I will be honest, Phase 2, for the first two weeks, was pretty miserable. But I'm finding that I'm being able to handle that workload now. I'm become tougher and calloused, but not noticing much improvement in my speed. In fact, my 800 reps after at least 3-5 seconds slower that usual.

I'm hoping Phase 4, with a taper down to 40-45 miles per week, will show new fitness.

I'm a 17:15 45 yr old masters guy trying to follow daniels - on the base question:

I've been running for 30 yrs - I think my aerobic base is about as good as it is going to get on the 40-50 mpw I can realistically run healthily.

So I skipped phase one and went straight to phase 2.

It has to be said that I tried this last yr and strained a hamstring pretty quickly. Maybe a coincidence, or maybe Daniels is just too much speed for my old legs.

I'm in week 2 of phase 2, and so far I feel great. Racing this sunday - should be a good test.

Hkkvf wrote:

What is the rationale behind Daniels' prescription for easy pace? I agree with most people that they are way too fast. How could he have gotten something that important so wrong?

he didn't get it wrong. all his paces are a recommendation. you will feel different, and thus be "in" slightly different shape on every single day. what you can accomplish in a workout or a run will always vary. this is why it is wise to learn to run by feel. usually you won't vary a whole VDOT point, unless weather is inclement, but some people are naturally "inconsistent." if your easy pace is too fast coorelated to your race times, it could either mean you're not in shape to run that time anymore, or just that you are more speed focused than strength, or just that you naturally need more recovery. if you intend to follow a training plan, i would always recommend that it's important to read the entire book, not just the schedule. understand the framework from which he is giving you these workouts. you don't need to grasp the science of kinesiology per se, but rather you should have a fundamental understanding of what the purpose of each run, each workout, is, before you do it. i'm almost positive that daniels would tell you that if your easy run pace feels too fast, then slow down.

look at his race pace charts. the longer distances are equivalent to way slower times over shorter distances, from the perspective of a guy used to focusing on 800m-10k. just because you run 14:55 for 5k does not mean you will or even physically can run 2:23 for a marathon. just like just because you've run 1:55 for 800 does not mean that your easy runs should be at 6:12 pace, just because that is the easy run associated with the model of a fully aerobically developed runner. what's most intelligent is the opposite of the college approach: don't paint with broad strokes, individualize everything.

good questions!

it is normal to be feel wiped out late in phase 2 and for much of phase 3. many athletes will continue to build their mileage during these phases as well. with a scholastic athlete things are trickier: what are you trying to peak for? are you willing to sacrifice sub-par performances over the next couple of weeks for larger returns in april and may? if so, press on. be careful she's not overtraining, but press on.

however, i agree with the poster above who seemed surprised that you leapt right into quality sessions. even HS athletes looking to transition quick from XC to winter track will ideally not be running workouts for several weeks. for example: i am a very big mileage guy, i have a very good base. when i take 2 weeks off i feel like i don't lose anything. i still take 4-8 weeks of base, no workouts, before every training block. the younger the runner, generally, the longer they need, and worse yet, if they are on a school schedule, the less time they have to do it. running workouts without base isn't neccessarily bad as a rule, but it's not advisable. you should be gearing for at least 2-3 weeks of easy running, if not more. any expert would agree, the more the better (within reason).

the function of a base period is indeed to make the quality intensive phases II and III sustainable. think of it like a ladder where each rung requires slightly more work to summit. say rung 10 is your original base fitness. focused quality sessions are what you scratch and claw away at your fitness to bring you up to rungs 11, 12, 13. you're going to be able to get back to the 10th rung easier if you climb the first 9, rather than just do a vertical leap, tiring yourself out for the more important "rungs," which require serious work.

We're not on the 14th week of the Daniels plan, we are on our 14th week of this training build up. After XC she took 1 week completely off and 1 really low week. Then we started building up. Our weekly miles built up roughly with building by about 5 for 2-3 weeks and then taking a down week maybe about 5-10 miles less than the first week. Although didn't take the first down week too low.

Here are her weekly miles starting from Mid November:

24,26,31,36,42,26,40,40,45,32,45,45,50,35

Weekly we alternate 2 tempos:

One week we do a steady state run in 6:45ish pace range and started with 3 miles and gradually built it up to 6, have done 6 five times now, going to 7 on Monday.

The next week we would do a T workout starting with 3x1 Miles at T pace(6:25ish) with 1 min rest and have built that up to 5x1 miles.

Then we alternate sets of hills sprints and regular track sprints weekly as well. We'd built to doing 5x150s all out and 5x100 all out.

So this was what I constituted our base phase or phase 1 as you call it. So it's not like we were only doing easy runs and then jumped right into Phase 2 of Daniels. She had also raced serious 4 times and ran a few 400s and 800s and 2 5Ks one of which she paced a team mate and the other went hard. Each of her 4 serious races were PRs, twice in the 1600 and twice in the 3200.

My plan now is to loosely follow phase 2 and phase 3 of Daniels but when Daniels schedules T workouts I will probably still alternate slower steady state runs and T pace Miles each week. Our main focus is XC so don't want to do much to sacrifice endurance or aerobic.

I'm the most nervous about over training and will hopefully always convince myself to stay on the safe side of things, which I think some of you have made good points that might want to slow Daniels paces down a touch and don't necessarily have to do the entire volume he lists.

For some of you that are having trouble going straight from a Phase 1 of easy running to Phase 2 workouts, I'd suggest throwing in some easy T pace runs weekly during your phase 1 similar to what we did.

Thanks all for suggestions, criticisms and comments. Keep them coming!

**Sorry if my earlier post came off as too critical. I honestly could have used myself as an example in each of those, but just quickly pulled stuff from this thread.

BR,

I really like your approach, and your attempt to keep everything within Daniels' suggestions... even the mileage buildup. That takes commitment and discipline that most are not willing or able to do. I hope it pays dividends for you.

Two questions:

1.) I notice you plan to increase mileage going into phase III. What is the thought process there? I ask, because in my book (version 1, p.137 in the "Phase III" section) Daniels mentions "it is not a good idea to further stress yourself by increasing mileage at this time", when discussing the stressful workouts in Phase III.

2.) I also notice you plan to drop your mileage from 74 (phase III) to 40 (phase IV). That's a 46% drop, or nearly half. I don't have much experience, or a strong opinion, in this aspect so I'm genuinely curious how you decided on such a large drop? I do think most make the mistake of trying to maintain too much mileage during the peak racing season, so definitely better to be fresh than tired, but I don't remember Daniels giving any detailed guidelines here. Would appreciate any insight you, or others, have to offer.

Thanks! I hope it pays off as well!

1. I do not have the book in front of me, but I think I remember reading that it is not wise to increase mileage DURING Phase 3, but rather maintain a particular number of miles during this phase. 68 will become 74 after three weeks at the end of Phase 2. I hope this makes sense.

2. The very first workout in Phase 4 calls for 4 sets of (2x200 F, 400m rec. 1x400 F, 800m recovery) which equals 2 miles or 5% mileage. Based on the volume of this workout (2 miles) that is 5% of a 40 mile week. Long run at 25% of weekly mileage = 10 miles. This seems about right for a miler in peak racing season.

Like you, I also made the mistake of keeping a higher volume during racing season, only cutting weekly mileage by 10 miles. No wonder I had poor results.

@Indoor I think you make a great point about using tempo runs in Phase I of the Daniels Workouts. Perhaps an adult runner who is peaking for one specific race in 24 weeks can get away with doing a long period of just easy running. But for a high school kid it's simply not feasible, so I think adding tempo runs is a much better option.

here are some questions for you guys

A) are ANY of you guys taking a down week?

B) Are you going for goal pace or current pace?

If you answer no to A, here is my piece of advice:

- do the ocasional recovery week in phases 1, 2 and 3. at 65% volume for each one, phase 1 recovery weeks are nothing but easy running, phase 2's is 4 easy, 1 tempo and 1 long run (both of which are at 60-70% volume), phase 3's are similar to phase 2's with 3 easy days, 1 workout, tempo and long run (60-70% volume again, unless tempo run replaces long run).

If you answer goal pace for B, make sure you are being very smart with how your body is responding

////????//// wrote:

B) Are you going for goal pace or current pace?

If you answer goal pace for B, make sure you are being very smart with how your body is responding

Daniels is set up for current pace/fitness. If you are using goal pace, you a) might be training too fast; and 2) are not really following Daniels.

I use a condensed version of his formula with high school kids. I actually was able to talk to him about it.

I know some runners who were coached by him and they saw major improvement.

One girl said she had her doubts because the training was so easy, then the result came and she believed.

Another said the method didn't work for her but she saw others getting results.

disciples of Jack may want to check this out (12 part talk)

http://www.youtube.com/user/TrackScientist?feature=watch

I'm finding that doing a long Lydiard-type base period before easing into Daniels phase 2 is fairly effective. Not the stereotypical Lydiard base period of 90% LSD, but the actual Lydiard base period, which involves some stronger effort runs, tempos (which he called time trials - which used to confuse the hell out of me), strides, etc. We also do a lot of GSM work in our base, which Lydiard wasn't a fan of, but is obviously worthwhile.

Then when we ease into Daniels, we're strong enough to handle it - for the most part.

But - we're only peaking once/year (XC), not twice, so I think that makes it a lot easier to put together a real solid base.

one thing I disagree with JD on is dictating the pace of runs on non-workout days. I get that they should be at best aerobic effort - for the most part - but I strongly believe in a saying I read here once (might have been Malmo?): "grasshopper not chase run; let run come to grasshopper."

that is exactly what he is implying. the E day paces are recommended only for base training and long runs. the phase II, III and IV E days are meant to be recovery days, not easy paced days. As for Long Runs, keep in mind that they are still a workout, especially if you are training for 10k or higher. I still wouldn't do long runs faster than E pace, but would not even consider running them slower than that either.

Hi,

I posted here in the early spring as you can see above.

Just wanted to give you a quick recap on how my girl's season went. Coming into the winter her PR's were 5:22 and 11:41. After indoor off of just a good base phase she had gotten to 5:12 and 11:31 and that's when I posted above.

We did start and get a lot through of Daniels Phase 3 and then slightly switched out but still did a lot of Daniels workouts. We were able to do 6x400 at R pace with 1 minute easy jog rest. On our speed days a lot of times I would do daniels workouts of 4x300 R pace and 4x200 F pace. We would also do a lot of V02 and mix that with R pace. She also did keep up on her tempo runs, getting up to 8 miles at Marathon pace and 5x1 miles at T pace.

Anyways by the end of the season she went 5:01 at regionals and then 4:58 a week later. She also got her 3200 down to 11:00. Her 800 dropped from 2:24 to 2:18.

Also our #2 girl doing mostly same training but slightly less Daniels stuff at start got down to 5:01 from 5:29 and 2:17 from 2:27. They both had similar bases from the winter but she had not worked as hard in her previous track season so makes sense that she had more to improve. She was coached by our distance coach, I coach the #1 girl after practice as she also plays softball at a high level.