Will following Daniel's formula lead me to sub 15 5k?

BR, I've got a thread titled 'spring sub 18 5k training', if you wouldn't mind commenting on it. Solid training, looking forward to dipping under 18. I'm actually in marathon training, so I'm going to have one shot to do it. **thinking about doing a time trial a couple of weeks before just to break the rust loose.

also, been dealing with ITBS for the last 2 weeks. not sure what provoked it.

shoes that i run in all the time (saucony pro grid A5 (racing flats)) have about 1,000 miles on them, so that might be the problem.

also, started incorporating strides about 4 weeks ago. 4 x 20,20,20 meters at 3k,1.5k,allout after every easy run. The over striding might have aggravated it.

Here's to hoping it goes away soon, though.

Hey! Will do. Just keep at it, get healthy, and be consistent....I'll jump over to your thread and check it out.

I,ve had a few good workouts that suggest I have some good fitness so all is well. I will do a rust buster week 1 of march and then a 10k in April. I am still doing the Magill plan but I would rather do Daniels....but I need to identify a big race to aim for before I start the Daniels.

Glad to hear you got thru phase 1_ keep going

bangalangadanga wrote:

also, started incorporating strides about 4 weeks ago. 4 x 20,20,20 meters at 3k,1.5k,allout after every easy run. The over striding might have aggravated it.

Hey Banga,

Sorry to hear you ITB is acting up.

Why are you doing your strides that way? (accelerating up to the final 20m all-out)

It seems unnecessary to go that fast/hard, especially for 5k training. And it probably elevates your risk of injury. I think Daniels talks about keeping them at 95% effort, "quick, but relaxed", or 1-mile race pace... can't remember his exact recommendation but it was definitely not "all-out".

This program is a MF'er. My easy days are slower than they've ever been. I had exactly one run under a 8:00-min pace this week.

Has anyone experienced several days like this? I'm hitting my splits like I should be in his workouts, but I didn't expect to feel so trashed the next two days afterwards. I'm roughly 30-40 seconds slower than I should be on my "easy" days.

I read a couple threads on this site about how tough the Daniel's race-specific training plans are...and that you don't notice any improvements until you actually taper. This has to be frustrating when you are getting pounded for nearly four months of training and you don't see any gains from it.

I'm going to stick with it and see what happens. I've completed every workout thus far and have been consistent with my mileage.

BR, what are your 1500/3k prs, and what workouts have you done over the last 3 weeks?

-H

I'm in Phase II:

Week 1

6x 200-200-400 on a hill / @ mile pace

8x1000 at 5K pace, 2 minute rest

8x1000 at Threshold, 1 minute rest

Week 2

4x 200-200-800 @ mile pace.

20 minute tempo/threshold with 4x200 at mile pace afterwards.

Have never ran a 3K or a 1500m. 5K pr is 17:30 on the roads. Mile is 4:53 outdoors last summer.

BR wrote:

I'm in Phase II:

Week 1

6x 200-200-400 on a hill / @ mile pace

8x1000 at 5K pace, 2 minute rest

8x1000 at Threshold, 1 minute rest

Week 2

4x 200-200-800 @ mile pace.

20 minute tempo/threshold with 4x200 at mile pace afterwards.

Have never ran a 3K or a 1500m. 5K pr is 17:30 on the roads. Mile is 4:53 outdoors last summer.

are you getting in a long run, too? 3 workouts per week is a lot. week 1 looks like a killer.

that 8 x 1k workout sounds really hard. do you think that could have cooked ya a bit?

You changed the 1k intervals to 5k pace. I do them at "I" pace that he gives you, which is about 3200 pace. This workout was pretty difficult the first time, but two weeks later I was able to finish it and felt strong at the end.

I'm wondering how much it matters what pace you run them at.

Yes, long run at 25% of weekly mileage - 62 miles total. So 15.5 was my long run last week on top of the three workouts.

8 x 1000K was more mentally taxing than anything else.

The 4 x 200-200-800 workout at mile pace was PAINFUL...but it was 5% of my weekly mileage.

yeah, that's some intense stuff. i guess daniels knows what he's doing, and I do know he talks about one of the phases being really hard, so maybe you just have to "tough it out"? make sure you're getting plenty of rest.

Galactica wrote:

I do them at "I" pace that he gives you, which is about 3200 pace.

I don't remember that being anywhere in the book. What page is this on?

Regardless my current 1500m ability is 4:38.

All his workouts should be done by feel. You will get used to them and in turn get faster.

Interval workouts should be about 4k effort, I like to cut down from 5k effort to close to 3k effort when I do them. Threshold varies from person to person based on your aerobic strength. You should also do these by feel - obviously threshold runs with short rest will be faster than a 20-30 minute tempo run with no breaks.

Rep workouts should be controlled and the jogs should be slow enough so that you can do the next rep at the same pace and effort. I usually don't have the guys do 800s at rep pace, since running at rep pace for more than 2 minutes is pretty tough. I usually modify it to 600s. These rep workouts are usually done from mile to 1200 pace and fell controlled, working on form and pace.

As for the easy runs, Daniel's chart shows the pace as you should run when not tired. Recovery runs are MEANT to be slower, and should also be done by feel. I run average 7:15 pace in base with ease, but in season I rarely get down there unless I've gone a few days without workouts. I also like to do most of my runs at a recovery pace and finish the last 2-3 miles at a faster pace, closer or faster than what Daniels says.

Keep in mind, you don't have to do 3 workouts just cause the schedule says. Sometimes doing 2 a week is better, especially if you replace a tempo with a progressive long run, or a rep workout with short fast sprints.

I'm a big fan of Kellogg, and I believe most workouts should be done by feel, except maybe during crunch time (last few races).

ok, after flunking out of the 1500/3000 program 2 months ago with a strained hamstring last year, I am going to try a Daniels program again - albeit modified.

I'm switching to the 5k-15k program, and on a weekly basis doing workout Q1 and either a tempo or a light Q2 workout. No 3 workout weeks for me.

I'll get started on Monday and target a fast 5k in early summer.

Since you asked for everyone’s 2 cents...I personally can't stand JDaniels. He's made bank off of a cookie cutter training program. Following the plan verbatim is ambitious and def not a guarantee. However, ask my husband and he says he owes his marathon in the 2:20's to the plan (I on the other hand observed objectively as he trained and know that he added his own things/tweeked things,ran with me during recoveries (way slower than daniels suggests but it's what kept him injury free etc). In my opinion his "easy" pace/recovery runs are too fast for most. Thumbs up to building up mileage...try it see if it works for you but don't be to type A about it and get injured (again I wouldn't suggests taking Daniels formula for easy pace too literal). I think the basic skeleton of the program is not bad until you find your own style of training. Daniels is a scientist but his formula is very....absolute... maybe even a tad anecdotal. It's not really tailored to any one persons own physiological needs/makeup (therefore scienctific BS but I'm just saying...and if you 100% believe in 100% of his plan you will see realitively quick improvments...not sure about longterm though). So you need to kind of give it time/sure add some of his workouts to your own plan, try to build up mileage (although this takes years to see results if done right) and like all who improve agree...consistency and staying injury free is key.

Thanks for this. The reason I went to him in the first place is because I had suffered a serious plateau in my fitness/race times. When I first started running about 3 years ago I was 21:00 5K guy. In year two, I ran 17:40. I'm now entering my 4th season of running and still cannot break 17.

I'm in my 30's and I had no history in track/XC and I've never been coached. I feel I'm unqualified to write my own training programs. I also don't think it's wise to go back and do the training I did two years ago that allowed me to make a massive jump because I think that jump was just one of those circumstances of introducing actual speed work into the regimen. Everybody makes a lot of progress when they first start - I'm no exception.

for me, I'm doing this because I have never had a good coach - my hs coach babied me, I did not run in college, and my club coaches are fine, but they are coaching 100 people each - workouts have to be simple.

So I want to see if I can get closer to my potential with a serious, high level program that hits all my gears, creaky as they may be.

david g wrote:

ok, after flunking out of the 1500/3000 program 2 months ago with a strained hamstring last year, I am going to try a Daniels program again - albeit modified.

I'm switching to the 5k-15k program, and on a weekly basis doing workout Q1 and either a tempo or a light Q2 workout. No 3 workout weeks for me.

I'll get started on Monday and target a fast 5k in early summer.

Are you going to start with Phase I? Or are you jumping right into Phase II?

BR wrote:

david g wrote:

ok, after flunking out of the 1500/3000 program 2 months ago with a strained hamstring last year, I am going to try a Daniels program again - albeit modified.

I'm switching to the 5k-15k program, and on a weekly basis doing workout Q1 and either a tempo or a light Q2 workout. No 3 workout weeks for me.

I'll get started on Monday and target a fast 5k in early summer.

Are you going to start with Phase I? Or are you jumping right into Phase II?

__

I'll start with phase 2 - I have a pretty good base and I generally don't get into shape until I start running fast. I've been running for 30 yrs - the long slow stuff just doesn't do much for my racing anymore - I need to do pace specific workouts - which is another reason I like teh daniels plan.