Will following Daniel's formula lead me to sub 15 5k?

A large number of coaches have used various versions of Daniels plans, many quite successfully. Two things I can say:

(1) The VDOT paces seem to have a significant amount of mpw factored in. People running less than 50mpw tend to find some of the paces, like E and I, hard. Either build up to 60+ or make some adjustments in the listed paces.

(2) Once you start the program STICK WITH IT. Some people lose confidence and quite, because through the I phase, they don't see that much improvement. You see the real improvement only when you get to phase IV. Likewise, don't add to the training in phase IV because it's "too easy", as this is what the gains come from.

The workouts look brutal - I take it you are doing the elite plan? I posed a question to LRC earlier about whether or not I'd be better off doing the 1500-3K plan.

But it depends what your limiting factor is...are you miler type looking to move up? Endurance guy looking to get quicker?

Remember when you start doing workouts to do your easy days slower than the formula tells you to. I usually do my recovery runs ~30 seconds slower than my suggested easy pace. Keep easy days by feel.

Also, incorporate some short hill sprints or short sprints on the track once in a while to keep in touch with your pure speed.

It's most important you do the workouts by feel, and not follow the paces exactly as they are written. After a while you should know how v02 max (or I), thresholds/tempos, and rep workouts feel like.

Anyway, I never done a training plan exactly from the book. Should be fun to do, let us know how it goes!

I certainly plan to build up the mileage nicely that first phase. I am in no rush this season for once since I am on my own time. I will comfortably get up to 75 miles. Probably 60 miles in singles. Then will drop to 60-70 miles while racing.

Any opinions on how to accommodate double runs in my training? Should I throw them in the base period (Phase I/II) and then stop them once I begin my races (Phase III/IV)? I would probably not go more than 65 miles in singles. So I would probably hit a maximum of 2-3 double runs at 4-5 miles each. Thoughts on what to do with that?

The easy pace was something I wasn't sure about. Some days I just don't want to go sub 7:00 pace on a regular run, although I could if I push my body. I will be sure to let myself take it easy when workouts start. But I think I will go for sub 7:00 pace during phase I at least, since workouts will be very light or not there at all.

Thoughts on doing all workouts on a track? Is that ideal? It would be most convenient for me and would probably keep me focused. I have a hard time pushing myself on varied terrain (especially if I'm by myself which as of now I will be. I am looking for possible training partners) That's another thing - I hope I can hit times on my own for workouts. Do you guys think I'll manage alright if I am solo?

I was actually planning on doing the 5k-15k plan (in the Training for Racing section). I didn't even notice the Gold Elite plan. Is that geared towards a 5k? The mileage looks spot on with what I plan to do. What plan should I do? Do these two plans have different goals?

Doubles are a personal thing, but I would incorporate them during base, and maybe use them only as shake out runs on workouts day or 2 slower runs to help on recovery days (3=4 days a week is perfect).

As for sub 7 pace every day during base, I wouldn't stress over the pace as long as you are going easy. I find that during base I like to start my runs slower and finish most of my runs faster since I warm up throughout and end up feeling good. When I was ~16:20 shape I would start my runs around 7:30 pace and finish around 6:40, feeling good throughout.

I would keep the rep work on the track, since the focus is to run fast efficiently and comfortably (just like why there is a lot of rest). V02 max workouts (I pace workouts) are great done on the track as well. As for tempos, I like to mix it up, maybe doing it on the track to see my true tempo pace some days, and other days doing it in hilly areas to get more of a benefit. Threshold runs or cruise intervals (like 6 x mile 1 min rest) I like on the track myself, but could be done on hillier routes too if you want to map something out.

I haven't looked in a while but isn't the Gold plan tailored toward easier workouts and training?

We have a 24:45 8k xc runner on my xc team and on our easy days we will go like 7:20 pace, we just focus on running our workouts fast and hard. During the base building phase we ran quicker though, like 6:45ish pace

I'm looking at a "gold elite" plan and the "5k-15k" plan. I'm not sure which elite plan you are referring to that looks really tough?

For the person who asked if I'm more of a miler or endurance guy, I'm really just looking to bust out some fast 5k's and lower my PR. It would be nice to run a good 10k time too. My 1500 is 4:03 and 3000 is 8:41, so nothing special. I couldn't run those times now though. But I feel my upside is I still have a good amount of potential. I've flirted with 60 miles a week before but due to not having the most consistent coaching, my mileage has always took a hit mid season. Workouts got me through to solid marks but now that I'm on my own watch I want to push my volume and I'm hoping it will give me big results if I stick to Daniel's.

I actually do my tempos off the track. I would hate running 4-8 miles in laps. But I will go to the track for R and I workouts. I hope I can push myself if I'm alone on the track. That's what I'm most concerned about.

That's good to hear about the 24:45 guy on his runs. I will really ease off and not feel bad going 7:15 and ill make sure to hit the hard days hard.

I'm excited to do this. I'll start Phase I soon. Any more tips or thoughts on Daniels are welcomed.

max219 wrote:

Remember when you start doing workouts to do your easy days slower than the formula tells you to. I usually do my recovery runs ~30 seconds slower than my suggested easy pace. Keep easy days by feel.

This is so important. I'm a 25:00 8k guy and I almost never crack 7:00 on easy days. Usually I'm between 7:10 and 7:30 depending on how recovered I am from the last workout.

When I first started trying to follow the running formula, I had never done tempo runs. I struggled for a few really frustrating months, usually running slower than I thought I could, or else being unable to sustain the pace for the full distance. But I finally got it right, and I dropped my 5k from 16:00 to 15:00. I think it was mostly from the tempos.

That's very encouraging to hear. I'd love to drop a 15:00 in the Spring.

The only tempos I've done when I ran my 15:42 were 4 milers at 5:35-5:40 pace and 8 milers at 5:50 pace. I'm sure I should/could have been getting into the 5:20-5:30 pace for better results. Hopefully I can nail all the Daniel's workouts. I'm sure that will be key for me to seeing a big jump in time.

^Sorry, posted under a different name

I'll chime in and say I agree with those guys^^

Emphasize recovery for what it is- recovery. Once you start incorporating in your workouts, the workouts are what get you better, and good recovery is what gives the next edge to be even better. I'm a senior right now, and my sophomore year is when I finally started emphasizing recovery and really noticed improved results. A teammate of mine from my high school picked up running again after a year and a half off, so I'd go out with him on my days after workouts and we'd just plot around at 7:20-7:45 pace for an hour, and it was so noticeable how much fresher I felt. I was able to do workouts feeling a lot better, and that turned into better race results.

Another piece of advice is don't slack on the long run. It's been years since I read Jack Daniels so i'm not sure what's in there, but I would recommend at least a 15-16 long run, building up to it of course, and then try to just incorporate some easy drills or striders after to get a little snap. My long runs are actually usually my fastest average run pace of the week, apart from workouts.

And of course- do the tempos. I 100% agree with Mark Wetmore's training philosophy of really focusing on the aerobic. Tempos and progressives just work wonders. Personally, I find my body responds a lot better to hard longer workouts as opposed to slamming intervals on the track.

dude, I'm in the same boat as you. Recently ran a 5k in the 1620s and am looking to drop significant time in the next month as I'm just coming back from a long layoff due to injury.

It's interesting to me that when you ran 1542 your tempos were only at 535-40 pace. That's the pace for my 4 mile tempo efforts at this point and I would gauge myself to be in 16:0X shape at the moment.

Anyway, I have the same goal as you, to get as close as possible to 15:00 in the next year or two. It's motivating to see others with the same aspirations. Keep it up!

Thanks for chiming in. My long run usually is my fastest regular run of the week also. I usually start out at 7:15 pace and work down towards 6:20 for the last few miles to average 6:30 pace. I will plan to build up to 14 miles at the most, because I do not think I want to go over 60 miles in singles at any point in my training.

I'm not sure if 70 miles will be enough volume to get me to 15:00, but for this cycle I do not want to exceed that.

Best of luck to you in your goals to. I am surprised with myself that me tempo work was never faster. Although my PR was set on an extremely fast/flat course if that makes a difference.

One obstacle for me is that I do not have access to any hills? Will I be fine if I do all my training on flat ground or is that going to be a significant problem?

I will run all my mileage at a brisk pace, and then once I start incorporating the I and R workouts, I will slow down the easy days but still keep the long run up.

This is going to be a lot of work but I'm looking forward to it. Hopefully I can stay motivated through the winter. I will run my first race most likely in late February/early March.

i dont think you need hills at all to be honest, at least for sub 15. i know plenty of guys who train on flat ground that are that fast. hills are more beneficial once you need to stress a different stimulus, or when training for cross country.

Abeyance wrote:

but I would recommend at least a 15-16 long run.

THIS x1000.

I built up to a few 70 mile weeks this summer which included a lot of tempo work and hill work. I then, appropriately, went through a 4-5 week phase of faster long intervals and tapered correctly. All this and I ONLY shaved off 12 seconds from my PR. Major disappointment.

What I did I neglect? Long runs of 12 or more miles.

Everyone is different, but I made massive progress in the 5K off of lower mileage...around 55-60mpw...with harder long runs up to 16 miles on the weekend. Yep, it works against what Daniels is suggesting off his % rules, but it worked for me.

So, get up to 16 miles and start stomping people next year.

That's reassuring to hear I can get it done without hills. Thanks for that input. I'll be training all flat.

I do plan on getting up to a 14 mile long run and then holding that at 13-14 miles weekly until maybe Phase 3 or 4. What was your previous PR before you shaved off 12 seconds? And how fast would you recommend the long runs to be at? Would a progression from 7:15 to 6:15 still be ideal?

The more I think about it, I really need to find some training partners to help me along in the workouts. I know I will need motivation and someone there to push me for some of the R and I workouts on the track.

let us know how it goes

Glad I found this thread. I have been self training for a few months now, and have run a few good races but I have been battling injuries.

You have inspired me to try the Daniel's training word for word also, hopefully being able to run healthy. I will be looking out for updates on this thread for sure.

You should post your location to see if there are any other runners out there in your area that would like to do some workouts with you. I have the same problem, I have no one that still runs from high school and basically am stuck doing workouts on my own. good luck!

What is the rationale behind Daniels' prescription for easy pace? I agree with most people that they are way too fast. How could he have gotten something that important so wrong?