A different look at systemic/systematic doping

Other Running Related Topic

11 years ago 10/18/2012 4:55pm EDT

There was a good thread earlier today on doping in long distance running with all the recent attention on PEDs in cycling, and the discussion quickly went very technical into East African distance running. Here's a different look at doping in distance running, with a cobbled together list of distance dopoing offenses over the last ~20 years from wiki, Runners World, old LR threads. Interesting to try and draw different conclusions from the info:

**********************

*** SORTED BY DRUG ***

**********************

CORTICOSTEROID

2005 Luketz Swartbooi Namibian Marathon

EPO

2012 Eskyas Sisay Ethiopian Marathon

2012 Martin Fagan Irish Marathon

2012 Ronald Kipchumba Rutto Kenyan Marathon

2009 Shitaye Gemechu Ethiopian Marathon

2008 Alberico di Cecco Italian Marathon

2008 Roberto Barbi Italian Marathon

2008 Susanne Pumper Austrian Marathon

2004 Deeja Youngquist American Marathon

2004 Eddy Hellebuyck American Marathon

2007 Fernando Silva Portugeuse Cross Country

2003 Pamela Chepchumba Kenyan Cross Country

2002 Mohammed Mourhit Belgian Cross Country

2012 Fatima Yvelain French 5000m

2012 Hassan Hirt French 5000m

2010 Chakir Boujattaoui Moroccan 5000m

2008 Olga Yegorova Russian 5000m

2007 Khalid Zoubaa French 5000m

2003 Alberto García Spanish 5000m

2012 Nordine Gezzar French 3000m steeplechase

2010 José Luis Blanco Spanish 3000m steeplechase

2005 Amaia Piedra Spanish 3000m steeplechase

2004 Abdelkader Hachlaf Moroccan 3000m steeplechase

2002 Brahim Boulami Moroccan 3000m steeplechase

2009 Elena Kanales Russiann 1500m

2009 Mariem Alaoui Selsouli Moroccan 1500m

2008 Bouchra Ghézielle Moroccan 1500m

2008 Cristina Vasiloiu Romanian 1500m

2008 Elena Antoci Romanian 1500m

2008 Rashid Ramzi Bahrainian 1500m

2007 Adil Kaouch Moroccan 1500m

2006 Hind Dehiba Moroccan 1500m

2003 Fouad Chouki French 1500m

2011 Simone Alves da Silva Brazilian 10000m

2008 Helena Javornik Slovenian 10000m

2004 Cathal Lombard Ireland 10000m

2003 Asmae Leghzaoui Moroccan 10000m

NO INFO

2012 Rose Jepkemboi Chesire Kenyan Marathon

2002 Wei Yanan Chinese Marathon

1999 Delilah Asiago Kenyan Marathon

2005 Mostafa Errebbah Moroccan 5000m

2001 Liqing Song Chinese 5000m

2006 Yuliya Mochalova Russian 3000m steeplechase

2004 Abdelatif Chemlal Moroccan 3000m steeplechase

2010 Oksana Verner Kazakh 3000m

1993 Tetyana Volodymyrivna Dorovskikh Russian 3000m

2004 Aslı Çakır Alptekin Turkish 1500m

2002 Svetlana Kanatova Russian 1500m

2001 Lan Lixin Chinese 1500m

2001 Lili Yin Chinese 1500m

2001 Li Ji Chinese 10000m

OTHER

2009 Hassan Mourhit Moroccan 5000m

2008 Mihaela Botezan Romanian 10000m

2009 Jamel Chatbi Moroccan 3000m steeplechase

2006 Lydia Cheromei Kenyan Marathon

1999 Mohamed Ibrahim Aden Somalian 1500m

2012 Amine Laâlou Moroccan 1500m

2011 Sara Moreira Portugeuse 5000m

1992 Madina Biktagirova Russian Marathon

2010 Anna Alminova Russian 1500m

2007 Susan Chepkemei Kenyan Marathon

REFUSE TO TEST

2006 Rachid Ghanmouni Moroccan Marathon

2006 Aissa Dghoughi Moroccan Cross Country

1998 Abderahmane Djemadi Algerian Cross Country

1993 John Ngugi Kenyan 5000m

2009 Hamid Ezzine Moroccan 3000m steeplechase

2010 Corina Dumbrăvean Romanian 1500m

1984 Tatyana Kazankina Russian 1500m

STEROIDS

2012 Matthew Kisorio Kenyan Marathon

2012 Nguriatukei Rael Kiyara Kenyan Marathon

2007 Charles Nyakundi Kenyan Marathon

2006 Gert Thys South African Marathon

2006 Halina Karnatsevich Belarusian Marathon

2005 Artur Osman Polish Marathon

2005 Tezeta Dengersa Turkish Marathon

2003 Fatima Hajjami French Marathon

2003 Rasa Drazdauskaitė Lithuanian Marathon

2001 Silvana Trampuz Australian Marathon

1999 José Julio Rey Spanish Marathon

1993 Minna Lainio Finnish Marathon

2006 Ridouane Es-Saadi Belgian Cross Country

1998 Elena Fidatov Romanian Cross Country

2006 Rajendra Bhandri Nepalese 5000m

2003 Ambrose Bitok Kenyan 5000m

2001 Ali Saidi-Sief Algerian 5000m

1999 Dieter Baumann German 5000m

2006 Lyubov Kharlamova Russian 3000m steeplechase

2009 Saïda El Mehdi Moroccan 1500m

2007 Sureyya Ahan Turkish 1500m

2006 Latifa Essarokh French 1500m

2003 Geraldine Hendricken Irish 1500m

2003 Regina Jacobs American 1500m

2003 Yekaterina Puzanova Russian 1500m

1992 Natalya Artyomova Russian 1500m

1987 Sandra Gasser Swiss 1500m

2008 Abdelhadi Habassa Moroccan 10000m

2005 Sun Yingjie Chinese 10000m

2005 Zhang Yuhong Chinese 10000m

2001 Alene Emere Ethiopian 10000m

1996 Iulia Olteanu Romanian 10000m

1984 Martti Sakari Vainio Finnish 10000m

TESTOSTERONE

2006 Lyubov Denisova Russian Marathon

2008 Julie Coulaud French Cross Country

1996 Mary Decker American 5000m

2007 Binnaz Uslu Turkish 3000m steeplechase

2006 Musa Amer Obaid Kenyan 3000m steeplechase

2012 Nataliya Viktorivna Tobias Russian 1500m

2008 Daniela Yordanova Bulgarian 1500m

************************

*** SORTED BY COUNTRY **

************************

ALGERIAN

2001 Ali Saidi-Sief Steroids 5000m

1998 Abderahmane Djemadi Refuse to Test Cross Country

AMERICAN

2004 Deeja Youngquist EPO Marathon

2004 Eddy Hellebuyck EPO Marathon

2003 Regina Jacobs Steroids 1500m

1996 Mary Decker Testosterone 5000m

AUSTRALIAN

2001 Silvana Trampuz Steroids Marathon

AUSTRIAN

2008 Susanne Pumper EPO Marathon

BAHRANIAN

2008 Rashid Ramzi EPO 1500m

BELARUSIAN

2006 Halina Karnatsevich Steroids Marathon

BELGIAN

2006 Ridouane Es-Saadi Steroids Cross Country

2002 Mohammed Mourhit EPO Cross Country

BRAZILIAN

2011 Simone Alves da Silva EPO 10000m

BULGARIAN

2008 Daniela Yordanova Testosterone 1500m

CHINESE

2005 Sun Yingjie Steroids 10000m

2005 Zhang Yuhong Steroids 10000m

2002 Wei Yanan No Info Marathon

2001 Li Ji No Info 10000m

2001 Lan Lixin No Info 1500m

2001 Lili Yin No Info 1500m

2001 Liqing Song No Info 5000m

ETHIOPIAN

2012 Eskyas Sisay EPO Marathon

2009 Shitaye Gemechu EPO Marathon

2001 Alene Emere Steroids 10000m

FINNISH

1993 Minna Lainio Steroids Marathon

1984 Martti Sakari Vainio Steroids 10000m

FRENCH

2012 Nordine Gezzar EPO 3000m steeplechase

2012 Fatima Yvelain EPO 5000m

2012 Hassan Hirt EPO 5000m

2008 Julie Coulaud Testosterone Cross Country

2007 Khalid Zoubaa EPO 5000m

2006 Latifa Essarokh Steroids 1500m

2003 Fouad Chouki EPO 1500m

2003 Fatima Hajjami Steroids Marathon

GERMAN

1999 Dieter Baumann Steroids 5000m

IRISH

2004 Cathal Lombard EPO 10000m

2012 Martin Fagan EPO Marathon

2003 Geraldine Hendricken Steroids 1500m

ITALIAN

2008 Alberico di Cecco EPO Marathon

2008 Roberto Barbi EPO Marathon

KAZAKH

2010 Oksana Verner No Info 3000m

KENYAN

2012 Ronald Kipchumba Rutto EPO Marathon

2012 Rose Jepkemboi Chesire No Info Marathon

2012 Matthew Kisorio Steroids Marathon

2012 Nguriatukei Rael Kiyara Steroids Marathon

2007 Susan Chepkemei Other: Salbutamol Marathon

2007 Charles Nyakundi Steroids Marathon

2006 Musa Amer Obaid Testosterone 3000m steeplechase

2006 Lydia Cheromei Other: Clomiphene Marathon

2003 Ambrose Bitok Steroids 5000m

2003 Pamela Chepchumba EPO Cross Country

1999 Delilah Asiago No Info Marathon

1993 John Ngugi Refuse to Test 5000m

LITHUANIAN

2003 Rasa Drazdauskaitė Steroids Marathon

MOROCCAN

2012 Amine Laâlou Other: Furosemide 1500m

2010 Chakir Boujattaoui EPO 5000m

2009 Mariem Alaoui Selsouli EPO 1500m

2009 Saïda El Mehdi Steroids 1500m

2009 Jamel Chatbi Other: Clenbuterol 3000m steeplechase

2009 Hamid Ezzine Refuse to Test 3000m steeplechase

2009 Hassan Mourhit Other: Anastrozol 5000m

2008 Abdelhadi Habassa Steroids 10000m

2008 Bouchra Ghézielle EPO 1500m

2007 Adil Kaouch EPO 1500m

2006 Hind Dehiba EPO 1500m

2006 Aissa Dghoughi Refuse to Test Cross Country

2006 Rachid Ghanmouni Refuse to Test Marathon

2005 Mostafa Errebbah No Info 5000m

2004 Abdelkader Hachlaf EPO 3000m steeplechase

2004 Abdelatif Chemlal No Info 3000m steeplechase

2003 Asmae Leghzaoui EPO 10000m

2002 Brahim Boulami EPO 3000m steeplechase

2005 Luketz Swartbooi Corticosteroids Marathon

NEPALESE

2006 Rajendra Bhandri Steroids 5000m

POLISH

2005 Artur Osman Steroids Marathon

PORTUGUESE

2011 Sara Moreira Other: Methylhexaneamine 5000m

2007 Fernando Silva EPO Cross Country

ROMANIAN

2010 Corina Dumbrăvean Refuse to Test 1500m

2008 Mihaela Botezan Other: Chlorthadione 10000m

2008 Cristina Vasiloiu EPO 1500m

2008 Elena Antoci EPO 1500m

1998 Elena Fidatov Steroids Cross Country

1996 Iulia Olteanu Steroids 10000m

RUSSIAN

2012 Nataliya Viktorivna Tobias Testosterone 1500m

2010 Anna Alminova Other: Pseudoephedrine 1500m

2008 Olga Yegorova EPO 5000m

2006 Yuliya Mochalova No Info 3000m steeplechase

2006 Lyubov Kharlamova Steroids 3000m steeplechase

2006 Lyubov Denisova Testosterone Marathon

2003 Yekaterina Puzanova Steroids 1500m

2002 Svetlana Kanatova No Info 1500m

1993 Tetyana Volodymyrivna Dorovskikh No Info 3000m

1992 Natalya Artyomova Steroids 1500m

1992 Madina Biktagirova Other: Norephedrine Marathon

1984 Tatyana Kazankina Refuse to Test 1500m

2009 Elena Kanales EPO 1500m

SLOVENIAN

2008 Helena Javornik EPO 10000m

SOMALIAN

1999 Mohamed Ibrahim Aden Other: Ephedrine 1500m

SOUTH AFRICAN

2006 Gert Thys Steroids Marathon

SPANISH

2010 José Luis Blanco EPO 3000m steeplechase

2005 Amaia Piedra EPO 3000m steeplechase

2003 Alberto García EPO 5000m

1999 José Julio Rey Steroids Marathon

SWISS

1987 Sandra Gasser Steroids 1500m

TURKISH

2007 Sureyya Ahan Steroids 1500m

2007 Binnaz Uslu Testosterone 3000m steeplechase

2005 Tezeta Dengersa Steroids Marathon

2004 Aslı Çakır Alptekin No Info 1500m

***********************

*** SORTED BY EVENT ***

***********************

MARATHON

1992 Madina Biktagirova Other: Norephedrine Russian

1993 Minna Lainio Steroids Finnish

1999 Delilah Asiago No Info Kenyan

1999 José Julio Rey Steroids Spanish

2001 Silvana Trampuz Steroids Australian

2002 Wei Yanan No Info Chinese

2003 Fatima Hajjami Steroids French

2003 Rasa Drazdauskaitė Steroids Lithuanian

2004 Deeja Youngquist EPO American

2004 Eddy Hellebuyck EPO American

2005 Luketz Swartbooi Corticosteroids Namibian

2005 Artur Osman Steroids Polish

2005 Tezeta Dengersa Steroids Turkish

2006 Lydia Cheromei Other: Clomiphene Kenyan

2006 Rachid Ghanmouni Refuse to Test Moroccan

2006 Gert Thys Steroids South African

2006 Halina Karnatsevich Steroids Belarusian

2006 Lyubov Denisova Testosterone Russian

2007 Susan Chepkemei Other: Salbutamol Kenyan

2007 Charles Nyakundi Steroids Kenyan

2008 Alberico di Cecco EPO Italian

2008 Roberto Barbi EPO Italian

2008 Susanne Pumper EPO Austrian

2009 Shitaye Gemechu EPO Ethiopian

2012 Eskyas Sisay EPO Ethiopian

2012 Martin Fagan EPO Irish

2012 Ronald Kipchumba Rutto EPO Kenyan

2012 Rose Jepkemboi Chesire No Info Kenyan

2012 Matthew Kisorio Steroids Kenyan

2012 Nguriatukei Rael Kiyara Steroids Kenyan

CROSS COUNTRY

1998 Abderahmane Djemadi Refuse to Test Algerian

1998 Elena Fidatov Steroids Romanian

2002 Mohammed Mourhit EPO Belgian

2003 Pamela Chepchumba EPO Kenyan

2006 Aissa Dghoughi Refuse to Test Moroccan

2006 Ridouane Es-Saadi Steroids Belgian

2007 Fernando Silva EPO Portugeuse

2008 Julie Coulaud Testosterone French

10000m

1984 Martti Sakari Vainio Steroids Finnish

1996 Iulia Olteanu Steroids Romanian

2001 Li Ji No Info Chinese

2001 Alene Emere Steroids Ethiopian

2003 Asmae Leghzaoui EPO Moroccan

2004 Cathal Lombard EPO Ireland

2005 Sun Yingjie Steroids Chinese

2005 Zhang Yuhong Steroids Chinese

2008 Helena Javornik EPO Slovenian

2008 Mihaela Botezan Other: Chlorthadione Romanian

2008 Abdelhadi Habassa Steroids Moroccan

2011 Simone Alves da Silva EPO Brazilian

5000m

1993 John Ngugi Refuse to Test Kenyan

1996 Mary Decker Testosterone American

1999 Dieter Baumann Steroids German

2001 Liqing Song No Info Chinese

2001 Ali Saidi-Sief Steroids Algerian

2003 Alberto García EPO Spanish

2003 Ambrose Bitok Steroids Kenyan

2005 Mostafa Errebbah No Info Moroccan

2006 Rajendra Bhandri Steroids Nepalese

2007 Khalid Zoubaa EPO French

2008 Olga Yegorova EPO Russian

2009 Hassan Mourhit Other: Anastrozol Moroccan

2010 Chakir Boujattaoui EPO Moroccan

2011 Sara Moreira Other: Methylhexaneamine Portugeuse

2012 Fatima Yvelain EPO French

2012 Hassan Hirt EPO French

3000m

1993 Tetyana Volodymyrivna Dorovskikh No Info Russian

2010 Oksana Verner No Info Kazakh

3000m SC

2002 Brahim Boulami EPO Moroccan

2004 Abdelkader Hachlaf EPO Moroccan

2004 Abdelatif Chemlal No Info Moroccan

2005 Amaia Piedra EPO Spanish

2006 Yuliya Mochalova No Info Russian

2006 Lyubov Kharlamova Steroids Russian

2006 Musa Amer Obaid Testosterone Kenyan

2007 Binnaz Uslu Testosterone Turkish

2009 Jamel Chatbi Other: Clenbuterol Moroccan

2009 Hamid Ezzine Refuse to Test Moroccan

2010 José Luis Blanco EPO Spanish

2012 Nordine Gezzar EPO French

1500m

1984 Tatyana Kazankina Refuse to Test Russian

1987 Sandra Gasser Steroids Swiss

1992 Natalya Artyomova Steroids Russian

1999 Mohamed Ibrahim Aden Other: Ephedrine Somalian

2001 Lan Lixin No Info Chinese

2001 Lili Yin No Info Chinese

2002 Svetlana Kanatova No Info Russian

2003 Fouad Chouki EPO French

2003 Geraldine Hendricken Steroids Irish

2003 Regina Jacobs Steroids American

2003 Yekaterina Puzanova Steroids Russian

2004 Aslı Çakır Alptekin No Info Turkish

2006 Hind Dehiba EPO Moroccan

2006 Latifa Essarokh Steroids French

2007 Adil Kaouch EPO Moroccan

2007 Sureyya Ahan Steroids Turkish

2008 Bouchra Ghézielle EPO Moroccan

2008 Cristina Vasiloiu EPO Romanian

2008 Elena Antoci EPO Romanian

2008 Rashid Ramzi EPO Bahrainian

2008 Daniela Yordanova Testosterone Bulgarian

2009 Elena Kanales EPO Russiann

2009 Mariem Alaoui Selsouli EPO Moroccan

2009 Saïda El Mehdi Steroids Moroccan

2010 Anna Alminova Other: Pseudoephedrine Russian

2010 Corina Dumbrăvean Refuse to Test Romanian

2012 Amine Laâlou Other: Furosemide Moroccan

2012 Nataliya Viktorivna Tobias Testosterone Russian

11 years ago 10/18/2012 5:58pm EDT

re: Testing

Someone asked me what the list meant to me, but that question was deleted... here's my take, but the great thing about a list like this is you can make any inferences or conclusions you want to...

davelerave wrote:
nice list
what does it all mean?

I put it out there for people to analyze and draw whatever conclusions they want to. When I look at it, a few things jump out at me right away...

- there are 46 positive EPO tests since 2003; we assume that only a fraction of those that are using test positive, so it\'s interesting to ponder how much EPO has been/is being used in distance running; especially interesting with the cycling EPO drama unfolding

- there are 32 positive steroid tests and 7 testosterone positive tests; interesting how the discussion around distance running these days often focuses on EPO, but various steroids and testosterone seem to play a significant factor as well; love to hear Victor Conte\'s take on this

- the Kenyans and Moroccans have a significant number of athletes testing positive on the list; with the animated denial of coaches regarding doping, interesting to see how many athletes from those countries are actually testing positive; also interesting looking at Morocco having so many positives, being such a small country -- could this imply some sort of state sponsored effort to dope athletes?

- having read the recent thread on systemic doping, and reading the African coach\'s adament denials that PEDs likely wouldn\'t help his top performing distance runners, this data tells me perhaps he\'s not quite right; I\'m not a physiologist or doctor or distance coach and couldn\'t attempt to discuss the technicalities in the recent thread, but there are a lot of good distance runners on the list I posted above that seem to think they were being helped by PEDs

- there are a lot of Olympic and World Champion medalists, Olympic and World Champion finalists and competitors, etc. etc. I guess it tells us what we already know, that when we watch a OG/WC competition, we can expect that a certain percentage are doped; not a great epiphany, just a bit more factual than anecdotal when you see the data

With a data list like above, you can draw whatever conclusions you like from it. Those were some of my observations.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 8:47am EDT

re: Testing

I think you over-estimate the power of this list to enable you to draw whatever conclusions you want.

For example, it's debatable whether this list shows a "significant" number of Kenyans. There are 12 in 20 years, or 10 in the last 10 years. That hardly seems significant, especially considering their domination over the same 10 year period, and also the past 40 years.

This certain coach you speak of, doesn't deny "PEDs", but more specifically "blood doping". This means re-infusing blood, and EPO, but not testosterone, cortisone, or HGH. Then this list of 12 Kenyans drops to 2. Maybe 3, if you include "no info". That's 2 out of 46. This renders the list insignificant, when discussing anything about Kenyans. This data doesn't tell you anything significant about "blood doping" helping top athletes.

If it's intended to be a "different" look at systematic doping, it would be interesting to look at the system. Where do these athletes train? Who coached them? Were they based in Iten trained by Italians? Were they based in Japan? Spain? US? What were the doping laws in that country?

If you want to talk about performance benefits, you have to scratch a little deeper than "seem to think they were being helped by PEDs". Maybe it was their coach who seemed to think that. This list doesn't give any indications of before/after performances.

I'm afraid this list doesn't bring us any closer to drawing new conclusions, without a much deeper analysis.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 9:08am EDT

re: rekrunner

Also an uncomfortable reminder that nobody has ever been busted for hGH.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 9:12am EDT

re: rekrunner

It was only intended to be one data point that provides a longitudinal glimpse over the last 15 years or so of positive tests... not a comprehensive explanation of every aspect of doping... take from it what you want, or nothing at all... to me it raises interesting questions, many of which have been discussed and probably will be discussed more on LR in the future... this list doesn't provide an in-depth answer to any of these questions, but it helps ask questions and can help draw some hypotheses that can then be further looked into with deeper analysis... it's just one strand in a web, not the whole web

11 years ago 10/19/2012 9:24am EDT

re: rekrunner

rekrunner wrote:
If you want to talk about performance benefits, you have to scratch a little deeper than "seem to think they were being helped by PEDs". Maybe it was their coach who seemed to think that. This list doesn't give any indications of before/after performances.
I'm afraid this list doesn't bring us any closer to drawing new conclusions, without a much deeper analysis.

Well said rekrunner. Humans are, by nature completely obsessed with drugs and have been for thousands of years.

If athletes think a drug is a performance enhancer, then it will work, because the power of suggestion is considerable to our psyche. And the more we talk about these so called performance enhancing drugs, the more appealing they seem to someone who has lost the love for their sport but still wants to improve.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 9:29am EDT

re: Testing

So what is the different look at systemic doping? I have offered one, which most people find too uncomfortable to grasp. What is your different look?

11 years ago 10/19/2012 9:55am EDT

re: unbrainwashed

The different look was to simply put data out there and see what hypotheses or conclusions one might draw, understanding they might be incomplete without further research. There are tons of threads on LR, T&F News, VeloNews, Cyclismas, Trifuel, Slowtwitch, etc. about doping here, steroids there, EPO everywhere, blood transfusions being too expensive, the secret underworld of Kenyan cheating, European doping doctors making their way into sports other than cycling, etc. etc. But I hadn't personally seen a comprehensive list of middle distance and distance runners that had tested positive over the last 15 years or so; sorted by drug, sorted by country, sorted by event. So I suppose my different look was to put a comprehensive set of longitudinal positive testing data out to the LR community, and see if any hypotheses or conclusions could be drawn.

I suppose it's in some ways analogous to UCI_Overlord's recent article on Cyclismas about seeing Bradley Wiggins with a plaster on his arm after a TdF stage, when he wasn't supposed to have been tested per UCI protocol nor received any prohibited injections -- he just asked a question to journalists and cycling fans and professional teams, hey guys here's some interesting data and a pic about Bradley Wiggins -- what do yall think? This is where the analogy breaks down, because he was really trying to prove a larger point, but I was doing the same. Throwing some data out there, and asking -- what do yall think? You and rekrunner see nothing from the data, cool... sdfasdf points out the data is an uncomfortable reminder no one's been busted for HgH, cool... the different look is to see what you can see from the positive testing data.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 10:03am EDT

re: Testing

Read my message to rekrunner. I hope it makes you think, but you will probably ignore the issue like most people do.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 10:09am EDT

re: Testing

It'd be interesting if there was a research comparing the sale of EPO for doping and medical use. I know it would be impossible to create any data about doping. But my guess is that the EPO producers make more money selling EPO for doping purposes than for saving lives.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 10:13am EDT

re: Go Afrika

I'm sure they would. The more bullshit talked about EPO the bigger the trade between drug companies and athletes.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 10:31am EDT

re: unbrainwashed

unbrainwashed wrote:
Well said rekrunner. Humans are, by nature completely obsessed with drugs and have been for thousands of years.

For medicinal purposes, yes. For recreational purposes, yes. For performance enhancing purposes with real scientific knowledge, probably only the last several decades.

If athletes think a drug is a performance enhancer, then it will work, because the power of suggestion is considerable to our psyche.

Probably true to some extent, various placebo effect studies published previously on athletic performance... but not dropping a 10.2 sprinter to a 9.8 sprinter, or dropping 10 minutes off the fastest ever ride up Alp d'Huez, or running a sub-48 400m world record that doesn't get touched for decades. Power of positive thinking and the placebo effect won't take you that far.

And the more we talk about these so called performance enhancing drugs, the more appealing they seem to someone who has lost the love for their sport but still wants to improve.

Totally disagree. Secrecy and lack of transparency actually protects the dopers, it's exactly what they want. Bringing the truth to light puts things into perspective, and helps educate and empower young athletes not to take PEDs. Ironically one of the consequences of the cycling drama unfolding now is education for young athletes in all sports about the insidious, dangerous, destructive nature of PEDs. Young cyclists aren't the only ones watching the circus. The "if we don't talk about it, it'll go away" approach never works... for PEDs, for teenage pregnancy, for HIV, for Fannie & Freddie backed sub-prime loans. Not the answer.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 10:44am EDT

re: unbrainwashed

You dont have to "lose the love of the sport" in order to take PEDs.

It's a calculated decision.

Choice

A) I get a real job and accept that I'll never be on the podium.

B) I start to juice and compete with everyone else.

The choice at the top is about as complicated as choosing to to big mileage. It's just part of it.

11 years ago 10/19/2012 11:06am EDT

re: rekrunner

rekrunner wrote:
This certain coach you speak of, doesn't deny "PEDs", but more specifically "blood doping". This means re-infusing blood, and EPO, but not testosterone, cortisone, or HGH. Then this list of 12 Kenyans drops to 2. Maybe 3, if you include "no info". That's 2 out of 46. This renders the list insignificant, when discussing anything about Kenyans. This data doesn't tell you anything significant about "blood doping" helping top athletes.
I'm afraid this list doesn't bring us any closer to drawing new conclusions, without a much deeper analysis.

Sometimes simplicity and complexity are wonderful partners. You read the complex 9+ pages of the African coach's arguments that his elite athletes wouldn't be aided by blood transfusions or EPO... you read about harder training regimens, physiological adaptations due to living at higher altitudes, the sizes/shapes of red blood cells and their associated oxygen carrying abilities, the tradeoffs between higher viscosity rbc packed blood vs. lower viscosity lower hematocrit blood, etc. and you get wooed into thinking the complexity of the argument certainly could make sense -- he does make a compelling argument. But then simplicity comes in the form of a list put together by an unsophisticated hack that shows Kenyan sub 2:10 male marathon runners and 2:20+ female marathon runners testing positive for EPO. All of a sudden, the coach's 9+ pages of complex physiology analysis looks like smoke and mirrors... and the claims that "this renders the list insignificant, when discussing anything about Kenyans" a bit shallow.... I think USADA's case is a good example that multiple threads of information, no matter how weak they might seem individually, can ultimately make a strong case when woven together.

11 years ago 10/20/2012 1:02pm EDT

re: Testing

What? What? What and what?First, I guess we are speaking of an Italian coach, not an African coach, unless we meant African's coach all along.Second, the arguments are not 9+ pages, and not all that complex either.But this list shows one Kenyan male and one Kenyan female testing positive for EPO. Not "runners" but "runner".There is no "all of a sudden" moment that renders any analysis as "smoke and mirrors". Nothing in this list provides that kind of corroboration.The scarcity of Kenyans testing positive for EPO renders this list insignificant for many of the things that seemed to jump out to the OP. You have to hunt for the names of the lone male and lone female Kenyan. The list doesn't mention coaches, or performances. It simply doesn't support any hypothesis or conclusion yet mentioned. All of that still renders the list meaningless. It needs more columns, including coaches, where they trained, before and after performances, before we can hope to contradict any statements about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) in a certain class of athlete.

Testing wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
This certain coach you speak of, doesn't deny "PEDs", but more specifically "blood doping". This means re-infusing blood, and EPO, but not testosterone, cortisone, or HGH. Then this list of 12 Kenyans drops to 2. Maybe 3, if you include "no info". That's 2 out of 46. This renders the list insignificant, when discussing anything about Kenyans. This data doesn't tell you anything significant about "blood doping" helping top athletes.
I'm afraid this list doesn't bring us any closer to drawing new conclusions, without a much deeper analysis.
Sometimes simplicity and complexity are wonderful partners. You read the complex 9+ pages of the African coach's arguments that his elite athletes wouldn't be aided by blood transfusions or EPO... you read about harder training regimens, physiological adaptations due to living at higher altitudes, the sizes/shapes of red blood cells and their associated oxygen carrying abilities, the tradeoffs between higher viscosity rbc packed blood vs. lower viscosity lower hematocrit blood, etc. and you get wooed into thinking the complexity of the argument certainly could make sense -- he does make a compelling argument. But then simplicity comes in the form of a list put together by an unsophisticated hack that shows Kenyan sub 2:10 male marathon runners and 2:20+ female marathon runners testing positive for EPO. All of a sudden, the coach's 9+ pages of complex physiology analysis looks like smoke and mirrors... and the claims that "this renders the list insignificant, when discussing anything about Kenyans" a bit shallow.... I think USADA's case is a good example that multiple threads of information, no matter how weak they might seem individually, can ultimately make a strong case when woven together.

Reply Replying to

Username

Password

Leave the password field blank to post anonymously.

Post Preview

By posting you acknowledge that you have read and abide by our Terms and Conditions.

Remember me on this device.

A different look at systemic/systematic doping

Hot Now

Of General Interest

This thread has already been deleted.

You have been subscribed.