| Mid-distance |
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Although either of these actually happening are so low in likelihood that if it were to ever happen then the athlete is almost certain to be a major suspect of gene doping. This is mostly due to the fact that 99.9% of Ethiopians are born with a very high ratio of slow twitch muscle fibers with respect to fast twitch muscle fibers, and the reverse is true for Jamaicans. In your opinion, what would be more impressive? An Ethiopian sprinter dominating the 100m in a future WC and shattering a world record, or a Jamaican long distance runner breaking the 5000m World Record in a future OG? |
| Malamute |
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Can you provide me the link to the article which did muscle biopsies on Ethiopian and Jamaican newborns? I didn't realize this was a known fact and not just speculation. |
| Mid-distance |
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I can't find any studies, but why waste all of those funds and conducting painful biopsies on reinforcing something that 99% likely to be factual? This isn't like some massive scientific discovery that shattered a 100 year old theory and must be replicated in laboratories across the world before being accepted as fact, this is common sense. After all, why else can't Ethiopia produce one sprinter who can't even make it past the first round while they have been producing so much talent in long distance running for the past 50 years? You can argue about lack of resources and infrastructure until you're blue in the face, but that is quickly contradicted by the fact they have been able to produce such talented long distance runners. |
| The Musicman |
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It would be interesting and good to see someone from Jamaica breaking the mold and become an elite distance runner. It's possible. |
| 2012xxx |
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I saw some unkown Jamaican H.S. runner do a 4:10 mile at Penn Relays which I don't think was rare, so the concept of one eventually breaking a 5K WR doesn't sound so crazy to me. As far as East Africans running fast sprints, also not crazy - granted he's Kenyan but Radisha can do a 45.5 in the 400 so maybe there will be Ethiopians also with amazing sprint speed. |
| Lagat Fan |
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Ethiopian sprinter to break the 100m world record would shock the world, no doubt. Jamaicain long distance runner that did the same would be very interesting, but nothing special. Why? Because many Jamaicans are born with typical skinny and lanky body required for long distance racing. How many Ethiopians even exist with the body and genetics built for a sprinter? Assuming they exist, you could probably count them on one hand seeing as it would be as rare as a genetic mutation for a baby to be born with predominant fast twitch fibers in a population that has the highest proportion of slow twitch fibers in the human race. With this in mind, what exactly are the chances those couple individuals out of a population of millions are found and pushed towards sprinting? That's why even an Ethiopian sprinter in the 100m finals will raise very mane eyebrows and shock many experts, let alone a gold medalist WC sprinter. No doubt, both the Jamaican runner and the Ethiopian sprinter will be accused of gene doping and be tested in one of the most thorough tests of any athlete in the history of the games. |
| Sumosan |
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Jamaicans are too lazy and shiftless to run 5000m. |
| gxf |
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How is it 99% likely to be factual? You're just making up facts and statistics. Ethiopians like distance running. That's probably one big reason they focus on it and are great at it. Also, it's not contradicted by the fact that they've only been able to produce talented long distance runners. They could be good at anything they want. Distance running is a more natural, way of life action for them. No one sprints 6 miles to school everyday. But you can run 6 miles to school everyday. It just makes more sense. Furthermore, look at Bekele and the rest of them. They could have been the top 1500m guys for the last 8 or 9 years if they wanted to (Bekele 3:31/32 on only a year of training for the 1500m). But instead they stay on the 5k and 10k and marathon. |
| Mid-distance |
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It has been known for quite some time by just about any sports physiologist that East Africans have the highest proportion of slow twitch muscle fibers, which easily explains why they are the most dominant in long distance races. And now you are showing how much you lack in logical thinking. You really think Ethiopians were drawn to distance races because they simply like it? That's not the case. People tend to be drawn to activities they naturally excel at, not the other way around.
Keep trying to push your PC nonsense. Fortunately, the whole world knows there's something more than just "hard work" and passion that makes someone a world-class athlete. You can be passionate as much as you want about sprinting, but unless you were born with at least 70% fast twitch muscle fiber composition, there is no amount of training that will ever turn you into a world-class sprinter and most sports physiologists agree. And another blow to your PC propaganda is the fact many of the elite long distance runners never really ran 6 miles back and to school when they were young. Wilson Kipketer, one of the legends in long distance running, laughed at the notion and was quoted to have said, "I lived right next door to school...I walked nice and slow".
This is how I know you know absolutely nothing about track and field, as anyone who even has a beginner's understanding would know there are very different skill sets required for sprinting events and middle distance ones. In sprinting, you are either born a sprinter or not. In middle distance races, sprinting ability can compensate for a lack of endurance and vice-versa. While Ethiopians have the potential to dominate middle distance as they are beginning to, anything below 800m is just not for them. |
| gxf |
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Where are the physiology studies that have known for quite some time that Ethiopians have lots of slow twitch fibers? |
| Timed |
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Yes, you're so right. Genetics doesn't matter and it's all about hard work. Anybody can be a world-class sprinter if they work and try hard enough. If Ryan Bailey worked harder than Usain Bolt over the year, he'll definitely beat him in the 100m final at the WC next year. Give me a break. |
| Galloping Gazelle |
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I'm sure you could develop a good Jamaican miler, but probably only up to a mile. |
| Mid-distance |
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I never thought that such a widely accepted fact on these boards would ever be contested, which further reinforces what I stated earlier that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to track and field. But, anyways, the only studies I could find through google required payment to view them. But, I was able to find this free preview of the well known sports science textbook BTEC National Sport and Exercise Sciences where I first read it from: http://books.google.ca/books?id=pmNwqI0YQOYC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Scroll down to page 351 and you'll read, "East African athletes win approximately 50% of the endurance races of elite athletics. Research has proven that the majority of East Africans living at altitude are born with a high number of slow twitch muscle fibers. In all, 70-75 per cent of muscle fibers are slow twitch". But, let me guess, the textbook is blatantly wrong and the only reason Ethiopia cannot produce world-class sprinters is due to infrastructure and resources? And yet, Ethiopia has much better infrastructure and resources than many West African countries, countries that have at least produced world-class sprinters that have broken the 10 second barrier. |
| gxf |
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Who are you responding to? I never said genetics don't matter and that it's all about hard work |
| gxf |
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I never thought that such a widely accepted fact on these boards would ever be contested, which further reinforces what I stated earlier that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to track and field. But, anyways, the only studies I could find through google required payment to view them. But, I was able to find this free preview of the well known sports science textbook BTEC National Sport and Exercise Sciences where I first read it from: http://books.google.ca/books?id=pmNwqI0YQOYC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Scroll down to page 351 and you'll read, "East African athletes win approximately 50% of the endurance races of elite athletics. Research has proven that the majority of East Africans living at altitude are born with a high number of slow twitch muscle fibers. In all, 70-75 per cent of muscle fibers are slow twitch". But, let me guess, the textbook is blatantly wrong and the only reason Ethiopia cannot produce world-class sprinters is due to infrastructure and resources? And yet, Ethiopia has much better infrastructure and resources than many West African countries, countries that have at least produced world-class sprinters that have broken the 10 second barrier.[/quote] Accepting widely accepted ideas simply because they are widely accepted is dumb. So, clearly, you are not a smart guy and probably don't know what YOU are talking about. That link that you provided is not factual. I need an actual link to a research paper. Also, it's known (maybe not widely to you) that muscle fibers are highly trainable. So even if you are born with a certain ratio, you can change the ratio. You really have no basis for being so hostile. All I did was ask you for the facts supporting your ideas. |
| Mid-distance |
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That is not the case. The case here is that you come on a forum and start disputing well established facts in sports science as if you're almost trolling. It's not unlike a troll going to a physics forum, claiming their physics textbook is not factual and demanding scientific evidence for the theory of relativity and then claiming it is wrong on the basis of a lack of recent studies and data.
A well respected physiology textbook is "not factual"? Now the burden of proof has shifted to you. Can you produce at least one study or even quote one physiologist that has said that there is a subset of Ethiopians with fast twitch muscle fibers? And as for converting fibers, you are woefully incorrect. While it is true one can conver type IIb to type IIa through training, type I (slow twitch) can never be converted to type II (fast twitch) and vice versa. So, if a person is born with 60% type I, no amount of training in the world can turn them into a world-class sprinter. |
| 2012xxx |
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All this fast twich/slow twitch ratio stuff is fascinating but how would it account for someone like Seb Coe or David Kadisha or El G? They run the 400m in 45-47 range, meaning they are good sprinters thus they must have lots of fast twitch. Yet they run great at LD (El G ran 5K around 13) so they must also have lots of slow twitch. But obviously you can't have 70% of both, so what is it? Are they more slow twitch guys that inexplicably still sprint fast or vice-versa? |
| Mid-distance |
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Good question. Seb Coe and Rudisha are both middle distance guys, and although I have no evidence to back this, it is likely they have a perfectly even distribution or quite close of fast and slow muscle twitch fibers, since that is the desired combination to be the perfect middle distance racer. 50% fast twitch gives you the potential to be a good sprinter, but not world class. The 400m is more like half aerobic and half anaerobic, so this gives the middle distance crowd a good shot at the 400m every now and then. |
| gxf |
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That IS the case here. You are the one that said that you couldn't believe that such a widely accepted idea was being contested. How widely accepted an idea is does not make it true. I didn't say the textbook was wrong. I asked for evidence or a research paper. You gave me an excerpt from a textbook that did not discuss the study thoroughly. That is not evidence. The burden of proof has not shifted to me. You have not provided a link to the study that supports your idea. I will find the papers supporting my ideas and will return. |
| Study |
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Weston et al. found East African runners to have a lower percentage of type I muscle fibre, the fibre type that is typically associated with endurance performance . This is in contrast with the classical expectations of elite distance runners and the findings of others, but Weston et al account for this by suggesting that this is an appropriate adaptation for the increased speed and hence glycolytic demands of modern 10 km running. Hence, while Weston et al describe possible factors involved in the enhanced fatigue resistance as shown by a treadmill test, there are clearly other factors involved in the consistent racing success of African runners. http://jap.physiology.org/content/86/3/915.full |