400-800 guy in cross

The only thing I can relate is one of my college team mates was built like a linebacker, was very aggressive during workouts, would often have to drop out of XC workouts due to stomach issues, yet ended up being our number 1 runner at the end of the season. He was a 1:49 800 guy in track.

Only difference is he never got injured despite over doing it in workouts much of the time. Just the stomach cramps.

Remember also that the knee issues you referenced may not necessarily be a by product of his relative bulk. Skinny runners can get knee problems as well. Check to see if it's a shoe or foot placement issue, one that might be corrected with some simple foot and ankle exercises.

Not worried about him getting re-injured due to his bulk. The original injury was a weird thing. He was simply standing up from his couch. He must have had his weight at the wrong angle or something as he extended his knee. It just popped out of place.

He is a really bounding type of runner. Think of Geb x 2. He runs very much like a sprinter, bouncing from ball of one foot to ball of the other foot. I think that all of the extra vertical motion is more of a problem than his weight. We've worked on flattening out his stride, but he still bounces, even at slow paces.

As he got back to running from his knee injury and illness, I knew we were on a very short time table, so rather than spending time doing distance runs, he did a lot of cruise interval type of stuff. For instance, instead of an easy 6 mile run, he would warm up a mile, then run 5 x 800 @ 3:00-3:05 with 1 min rest. Cool down would be a slow lap and stretching. The CI were fast enough to stimulate his aerobic system, but short enough in duration so that we didn't need to worry about injury and fatigue carrying forward to the next workout. This was the type of thing he did while most of the rest of the team was doing an easy distance or recovery run.

This was for mid-distance training. I didn't think he was capable of a solid 8 mile run where he finished with 2 miles at 6 min pace. That recent run is the reason I am re-thinking my initial plan for him.

CoachB, you're the one who knows this kid best. I think your initial sense of going with less volume and (overall) quicker tempo is about right.

Maybe as the season goes by the kid can gradually work up (in volume) and down (in tempo) to the "real" cross-country workouts, maybe by the third and second week out from your "big" meet.

Don't be misled by that eight-miler at the end of xc camp. By the end of that week, he may have been ready for running that eight-miler in the way that he did; but that *total* week may have been a pretty big drain on his reserves. It's not necessarily a sign that he's ready to just do the stuff your regular guys do.

Even if he hadn't had the injury history, at the start of cross season you might want to start a guy with that kind of mid-distance talent on something that "comes easy": short/moderate volume, including a variety of speeds and a bit of turnover work (mile pace or even a bit faster). You're working on what's already natural to him, so this should *not* drain his reserves or "burn him out."

[Similarly: I once had a hurdler/pentathlete who wanted to do cross her senior year. In her base period she did a fair amount of interrupted-type work, rather than mile after mile of slow stuff.

[She especially liked running 110s. By the end of base, she'd built up to running 80 x 110y (on the football field) with 45sec for each run-and-rest. So in an hour she ran a total of five miles at roughly 6:00 pace, and finished feeling great and full of running; whereas if she'd just tried to run five miles straight, it would have taken almost as long and would likely have hurt her training for the next day or two!

[You have to start with where the kid *is* (in terms of natural abilities and training background), then build gradually from there. You're never coaching "cross country"--you're coaching kids who *run* cross country.]

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

oh, and I wasn't suggesting that because of the good week and the 8 miler, that he would be able to do the same training as my other top varsity guys. I was thinking that it indicated he might actually be able to run some solid races for us in the fall.

Actually, all of my top varsity guys are going to need individualized training, I've had a kid with plantar fascia issues this summer and another with osgood schlatters. One of my guys (who actually won the freshman section title in 2009) has barely been training because he is in a very demanding youth theather company. Another one of my guys has barely been training, period. Each will have to be brought along slowly and at their own pace. Out of my projected top 7, I've got only 2 guys that have had what I would consider a normal summer for distance runners.

There is always a chance that he is just an overall very talented runner...good aerobic capacity and fantastic leg speed. He might end up being a 49, 1:52, 4:12, 9:15 type guy if you continue to develop all of his energy systems.

another idea wrote:

There is always a chance that he is just an overall very talented runner...good aerobic capacity and fantastic leg speed. He might end up being a 49, 1:52, 4:12, 9:15 type guy if you continue to develop all of his energy systems.

He is, without a doubt, the most naturally talented athlete I've ever coached. He doesn't really play "ball sports", but when we play games like "ultimate medicine ball" during track season(med ball version of ultimate frisbee) he is clearly head and shoulders better than the stars of the football team. His balance and agility are great. He regulary jumps up on hand railings and walks along them, hopping back and forth between one railing and the other. If he was playing football, he would be a stud strong safety or tailback. On the soccer pitch, he'd kill it as a mid-fielder. He has the strength and endurance to wrestle.

I'm happy that he has chosen XC and Track. I really want to find someone who can work with him on the decathlon events. He is excited about that challenge.

CoachB, I'd really enjoy it if you would keep us updated periodically during the coming months--about this kid *and* the others. I think it would be fascinating to see how things work out.

Maybe you could bump this thread, if you could find it again.

Anyway, best of luck to you and your students. It appears that they're lucky to have you!

thanks. I'll bookmark it.

No real news for you, lease, but here is a video from our aforementioned camp.

Whoops, sorry

CoachB wrote:

No real news for you, lease, but here is a video from our aforementioned camp.

Thanks, but...

The season is under way. For the first few weeks, he was running with the rest of the varsity team doing the "standard" varsity workouts. My reasoning was that the mental boost of training with the team would be a bigger benefit to him than having him run individualized workouts. Through 2 early season time trials, he was slightly behind where he was last year. But, he had a much poorer summer mileage total than the previous year, so I was just being patient.

At our league opener, he absolutely laid an egg. 11:20 through 2 miles then absolutely died to finish in 18:37. I've modified his training since then.

The team run the following day was an easy 8 miler. I had him do instead 2.8 miles progression (19:08) then 25 x 100 @ 19ish on a 45 second turn around (thanks lease).

His "workouts" since the meet have still been with the team, but his recovery days are mostly on his own. He does the run that one of my lower beginner groups does, usually 3.0 - 3.5 miles, then will do some faster stuff on the track. The faster stuff has been 5 x 800 @ 2:55-3:00 with 1 min rest or 25 x 100 as described above or 10 x 200 @ 36-37 with 40 seconds rest. Every day on his schedule looks "hard" but the paces he is running are pretty relaxed for him with his 1:59 800 speed and 52 second 400. He says he is feeling fresh and is looking pretty good again.

Today, the team was running 800s and he looked really good / comfortable / easy running with our #3 man. We race again this saturday, so I guess we'll get an early test of his altered program. I understand that the proof will be at the end of the season....seeing if he is able to progress off such reduced volume (he is capped at 30mpw, including wu/cd running). But, I'm pretty interested to see how he runs this weekend anyway.

The way to correct the bouncing and form is core/weight-lifting. You said that he is naturally muscular, but besides running does he do weights or is he just naturally like that? Weights/Core/or even working on Plyometrics could really help his form and improve his race time significantly if he's not doing them already.

do you make him run intervals on xc terrain (grass, asphalt, trails, etc)? running intervals on xc terrain helps make track guys run well in XC.

Thanks for the update, Coach. I hope all goes well this weekend!

We do core 2-3 x per week. We run almost all of our intervals on xc terrain. His whole week will look like this.

M: 2 miles wu (8 x 300 uphill) 2 miles cd

T: 2.8 miles progressive + 10 x 200 @ 37ish (40 sec recovery)

W: 2 miles wu + 6 x 800 @ 2:45 avg (95 degrees) + 1 mile cd

Th: 2.8 miles easy + 15-20 x 100 on grass at 18-19, 25 sec rest

F: jog 4k course easy + 4 x 150 fast.

S: Race

S: 4-6 easy or cross train.

CoachB wrote:

We do core 2-3 x per week. We run almost all of our intervals on xc terrain. His whole week will look like this.

M: 2 miles wu (8 x 300 uphill) 2 miles cd

T: 2.8 miles progressive + 10 x 200 @ 37ish (40 sec recovery)

W: 2 miles wu + 6 x 800 @ 2:45 avg (95 degrees) + 1 mile cd

Th: 2.8 miles easy + 15-20 x 100 on grass at 18-19, 25 sec rest

F: jog 4k course easy + 4 x 150 fast.

S: Race

S: 4-6 easy or cross train.

There isn't enough aerobic work in that schedule. More easy over-distance days. Going the lower volume route is fine, but not when there isn't recovery between all these harder efforts. It seems like he can handle longer intervals like 6x800 so just get some strides in for speed maintenance and focus more on easy aerobic miles and high-end aerobic work.

i think your giving speed workouts too early. 200 at 37 is good, but doing 150s fast at this time isn't. When is state?