RE: Help Cancer Guy - Trying Again

Right! I forgot to tie that back in.

First, there is a possibility to get cheaper travel, I hope, by trying the airlines themselves to get a discount. It may be difficult, but I doubt impossible.

Secondly, and really absolutely most importantly, is not using the less (or least) expensive option, but the most appropriate option. I'm sorry, but photography is one of my things, and in a way, even more so, photo books of loved ones is my thing. I've never done one, but I have the vision of how it needs to look and feel. I know that Andrew understands my vision completely, even without needing to communicate it to him (with a couple minor exceptions). I know he can connect with this because it is already exactly in line with his work and passion of showing people as they are, artistically. In short, I unquestioningly believe he will nail this. I have zero assurance with other photographers, most especially those who specialize in portraiture.

Even if I believed with everything within me that Andrew was the best photographer on the planet, there would be no way to convince others. People will agree or disagree based on their own sense of beauty, aesthetic, whatever, regardless of my words, and I knew that from the beginning. What is more objective, I believe, is the style itself. Andrew's style is what fits how the book needs to come out. We need someone to, as I've said many times, give CG, the "real" CG, back to his family in the event that he passes away. To put it bluntly, Daddy don't pose! CG's kids, wife, parents, sister all need to see the CG that they see every day. Andrew not only gets this, it is the very thing he's been doing for years.

If this book only needed normal portraiture, I would have never asked Andrew. I think he can do it (though he'd refuse), but others can do a very good job as well. I'm not saying he is the best portrait photographer, period. I'm saying he is the best suited for what this book needs. It's about creating a stellar, emotionally comforting, close-bringing experience to his loved ones every time they open it. Traditional portraiture will not do this; not nearly.

I believe this very strongly. If I didn't, I would still offer to do this another way, with another photog. It would certainly save me a massive headache and a ton of time. And, it would save me money, just as much as it would save everyone else. I have enough motives to give this up. Really I do. But he is simply the best suited, and I can't live with getting someone I cannot trust with this.

And ultimately, when we get down to the bottom line, even if we needed the full goal of $7,500, it's just not too much! Not even if every penny of that went to the creation of the books and getting them to CG's family, it is not too much.

Andrew just got back to me on the discount on the books. It looks like we can get a 30% discount through August. Still need to confirm a detail on that, though (Now confirmed). Looks good, however, and that's about $300 extra bucks into CG's pocket (if we meet the full goal, anyway). Now looking at being able to give around $2,300 to CG's family. And we haven't even gotten to the bigger fish of hotel (which I am very confident about getting cheaper), or airline tickets.

It Is Doable! EASILY!!!

Fight Like a Runner!

http://fight-like-a-runner.blogspot.jp/

http://www.giveforward.com/fight-like-a-runner

brent.long.fightlikearunner@gmail.com

To help Cancer Guy

WWPD

Wejo or Rojo, are you guys reading this?

If yes, is letsrun going to have a direct donation liked to the website?

Donating sounds great to me, but I'm really questioning this guys stability and am wondering if there is something that will go directly to the family.

cmzxe wrote:

Wejo or Rojo, are you guys reading this?

If yes, is letsrun going to have a direct donation liked to the website?

Donating sounds great to me, but I'm really questioning this guys stability and am wondering if there is something that will go directly to the family.

That's very nice of you. Should I tell you what I question about you and others? Or would you just further attempt to justify your unjustifiable position that I may be "unstable" (I did almost fall down after my run today, however).

I've said that I should be getting a direct donation account link to put up soon.

Please do not forget. CG himself, and his wife, said they wanted a book. Why is it so hard to give to something they've explicitly said they want?

Why not donate both ways? As I've said, donating directly to CG is great. I don't blame anyone. I encourage them! And everything beyond actual costs (which are dropping as we speak) goes directly to CG's pocket.

Every little bit helps! Put some into both pots. I plan to.

Just highlighting the info cited above.

Andrew just got back to me on the discount on the books. We can get a 30% discount through August. That's about $300 extra bucks into CG's pocket (if we meet the full goal, anyway).

Now looking at being able to give around $2,300 to CG's family. And we haven't even gotten to the bigger fish of hotel (which I am very confident about getting cheaper), or airline tickets.

It Is Doable! EASILY!!!

Fight Like a Runner!

http://fight-like-a-runner.blogspot.jp/

http://www.giveforward.com/fight-like-a-runner

brent.long.fightlikearunner@gmail.com

To help Cancer Guy

WWPD

Brent. wrote:

To those who don't know how the donation drive is set up through Give Forward, they only send the money to the beneficiary. So, somehow CG will get the money, all of it, but I will then need him to forward funds to the appropriate people to actually pay for the project. By that time, we should know pretty accurately how much is needed for what, and then CG will simply have the rest to use as he and his family see best. I honestly didn't want to do it that way because I don't want CG spending any of his time on this other than welcoming a photographer to join he and his family for a couple of days. But, understandably, that's how Give Forward insists on operating.

Can someone explain how this would affect taxes for the family? Are they going to get a 1099 with $7.5k in income (and be left to pay the taxes)?

sunflower wrote:

Can someone explain how this would affect taxes for the family? Are they going to get a 1099 with $7.5k in income (and be left to pay the taxes)?

Nice catch. Definitely something to look into.

How might/would it differ, if at all, by donating directly? It would be the same thing, I assume? Although, the direct donation account that is already set up was done by someone on CG's behalf who, it seems, knew what he was doing and probably took that into consideration.

You seem really pushy throughout this thread, and my instinct tells me to run away from this venture. Judging from the responses in this thread it seems others' BS detectors are going off as well.

If Cancer Guy's project is so worthwhile, why can't the photographer devote his time out of the goodness of his heart like you're asking us to do with our money?

ldsfjoer wrote:

You seem really pushy throughout this thread, and my instinct tells me to run away from this venture. Judging from the responses in this thread it seems others' BS detectors are going off as well.

If Cancer Guy's project is so worthwhile, why can't the photographer devote his time out of the goodness of his heart like you're asking us to do with our money?

I AM being pushy! I am being pushy because others are doing their darndest to drag this down for irrational reasons. I'm simply pushing back.

I've already explained about the photographer. And nobody has said that anybody has to give. It wouldn't be charity or donating if so.

There is a reason for others' BS detectors going off. It's called cynicism.

Let's do both! Let's donate directly, and to the photo book project that CG said he wants. In that, I am not being "pushy". I'm trying to help people see their irrationality. It can be both/and, and not either/or. If people don't want or can't give, CG would be the first to tell them please not to. I agree. What is absolutely shameful are those negatively influencing others who aren't quite to their level of cynicism. It is hurting . . . CG and HIS FAMILY!

$38 over 200 people

or

$75 over 100 people

We already have $415 from 5 donors, an $83 average.

This can be done very quickly. It's a good project; a worthy project; a project that should not be quibbled over.

Fight Like a Runner!

It is NOT too much!

To help Cancer Guy

WWPD

Look. Just because someone says something against what you are doing or expresses a concern doesn't make it irrational. Yes, cynicism is a big issue. It is for me.

I think this whole thing is nice what you are trying to do, but I feel like its more about you and your photographer than him. What if everyone just forgot about the book for a minute, sent a donation to him and his family if they wanted, and if they decided once they had 5K that they would rather have a book than 5k for children's college funds or medical bills they could do whatever they wanted with the money. You said CG (can we start using his name?) wanted this book. Is this because it was proposed to him and he didn't want to turn it down because it was a nice gesture? Could he not think of anything else to do better with the money, like maybe pick their own photographer and spend what they like on the book?

All this talk about flights, and hotels, and fees could all be bypassed with direct donations. Let him set it up if that is in fact what he chooses to do with the money. I think a lot more people would be okay with this.

Agreed. Not everything that others have said is irrational. A whole lot has been, however.

The sad thing is, though I certainly openly said I wanted to and tried to persuade in the original thread to use "my" photographer, I offered the community the project to shape or mold how it wanted. Nobody would even acknowledge that, but kept going on about my anger, bad attitude, etc., and now, apparently, my instability. Everyone acted then, and seems to believe now, that my anger was born in a vacuum; nobody did anything at all to provoke it and everyone was just as nice and pure as the wind-driven snow. After refusing to do anything with my offer, I then said flatly that I did now insist on doing it my way. Those who see the value should give. Those who do not should not.

But now, it's kinda come full circle. I originally didn't insist, but was told I did. Now I do, and people are balking. As I said, for some, this wasn't about "my" photographer or "their" photographer. It was simply about being cynical and tearing down the idea because they couldn't stop foaming for long enough to realize that spreading the goal amount over hundreds of people makes it very inexpensive. That, and it was purposely "over budgeted" so as to donate cash to CG. It was never only about a book. It was always about caring for his family, with both a book and cash.

Why not both? Sometimes "all of the above" is the right answer.

I don't think so. It's possible, but I don't think you'll get that picture if you look at page 13 of the thread.

I really don't think that is as good as it would otherwise sound. Can you imagine the things they have going on? They do not want to spend time, I'm sure, on finding a photographer and making a book. Liking to have something and being willing (or able) to put time into it are not the same thing.

I know a lot more people would be comfortable with this. The question is, why are people not comfortable with also doing something that CG specifically said he wanted, and his wife was excited about? It makes absolutely zero sense.

Can you honestly not bring yourself to understand why CG would want to have his children have this book? They very likely will not grow up with their DAD. How hard is it to GET THAT? This is emotional support so that, for instance, when they do go to college, and inevitably go through some tough times, they break open the book and "spend time with Dad".

What isn't a father's emotional support worth?

Brent. wrote:

How might/would it differ, if at all, by donating directly? It would be the same thing, I assume? Although, the direct donation account that is already set up was done by someone on CG's behalf who, it seems, knew what he was doing and probably took that into consideration.

I don't know. I'm not an accountant (so maybe one can chime in). I run a small business and I know a little bit about taxes and 1099s from that, but we're not a charitable organization (and laws are likely different).

As a business, if you pay an individual/contractor over some threshold (I think $600) you are required to report it to the IRS (1099 form). This is to make sure the individual reports it as income and pays taxes. It's not that big of a deal, but it's one more thing to deal with and I'm always careful to let people know that upfront because once you find out (receiving the 1099 in January) it's already too late to "plan" for it.

So if CG gets $7.5k in income he's liable for taxes on that. He likely can't deduct the costs of the project (as an individual). So he pays taxes on the full $7.5k then also has to pay for the project (after tax money). He might end up paying out of pocket for some of that (depending on what his tax situation is). I'm assuming CG is in the US (maybe incorrectly because I think you and the photographer are both out of the country).

Anyway, I'm making a lot of assumptions here (and I really don't know that much to begin with), but I just wanted to bring this to light so someone who knows more could help before CG is left unexpectedly holding the tax bag. It might be more efficient to have the money go to a business (let's run or the photographer for example since that's the biggest cost item) because they would be able to deduct the project costs (I think). Or maybe to CGs church? Also, making a bunch of small donations to CG directly would keep it below the IRS radar (I think) so it would be at his discretion to report the income. With that route though individuals might not be able to claim it as a charitable donation (I'm not sure if they can anyway through the service you're using).

Nice idea. I'm just trying to offer some help.

All great things to consider. What's bad is that I was an accountant, sorta, and have no idea. But accounting in the military isn't quite the same thing. I got three college course credits for the military accounting school, but in the field it was mostly useless info. Just sitting with a calculator and crunching numbers all day mostly.

Anyone with information about this please chime in here, or email me. I've contacted the man who set up CG's direct donation account, and again, I get the impression he may know these things, so I'll try him after he contacts me again.

This all just seems kinda off to me. It seems over the top and out of scale and just . . . off, in a very weird and off-putting way.

It would be similar to a friend's kid having some kind of major disappointment and me saying, "Hey, kid, I'll bet a puppy would make you feel better. You like puppies, right?" And the kid says yes because everyone likes puppies, and I then decide it needs to be a purebred puppy from a special farm in Canada run by an old friend who really, really knows puppies, and I start an online fundraising campaign to buy the puppy because it costs more than I can afford on my own.

It's not like the kid expressed an interest in the puppy before the idea came up in conversation, or is pining for the puppy, or cares much what breed it is. Maybe the kid would rather have an iPod or a swing set or a cupcake or a trip to Disneyland, and would've said yes to any of those things had they been presented as available options. Maybe the kid would be thrilled to have a puppy, but would just as soon (or even rather) get it from the pound. Maybe the kid would think it's weird that I care more about getting the puppy than he does.

I think the goal of this project--providing this man's family with keepsakes in case he should lose his battle with cancer--is laudable, but I think it could be accomplished with considerably less expense with results that would be equally precious to the recipients.

My father's parents died when he was young. He has some stylized black-and-white portraits of them as well as some snapshots taken by friends and relatives. They're equally treasured.

You could probably send this family a dozen disposable cameras and a box of scrapbooking supplies and they'd create something meaningful and beautiful. They could keep the change for medical expenses and kids' college.

If they want it as bad as you say they do they would do it if given the cash. All they have to do is hire a videographer or photographer...might take a few hours to find someone but they still have to do the video, not make it themselves but still have time to be in it. Like i said i think its a nice idea but you are taking this a little personal and if they did find someone local they could pocket more money. Thats all i am saying on this subject.

This seems like a great summation of two disturbing threads and it would be a good time to let this subject drop now.

The more you post, the more maniacal his responses get and the thread just goes in circles.

You have hit it bang on. A photo keepsake is great. A complicated, expensive, one is probably not going to be significantly more cherished than one put together by the family. Couple this with Brent's obsession with "Andrew" and Brent's arm twisting by constantly saying "CG really wants this", and the idea becomes off putting.

I see Brent's point that no one is offering a "better" photographer and therefore he has licence to push his own, but I think most people would prefer to just donate directly and let the family decide what they really want/need.

It seems to me that the family could work directly with Brent if that is the route they want to go.

I applaud Brent for stepping up, but after every effort to get this off the ground has quickly resulted in Brent becoming frustrated and defensive, I end up wondering if the problem is not so much the cynicism of LRC or with Brent himself.

please stop being negative about this, if you don't want to donate for whatever reason then by all means don't, but i'm sure readers can make up their minds without all the doom-mongers saying its a scam, its too much, etc. the negative comments are going to prevent people donating that otherwise would've, and therefore those who post negatively may be negatively effecting CG. Please just keep any negative thoughts to yourself, there's really no need to post them.

Listen. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be mean. But when I read that it just sounded like I was hearing in the background, "attention Walmart shoppers".200 x $38100 x $75That's a month's (or two) Starbucks money.I don't know how you can compare your dog analogy to precious memories of a father. It's apples and peanuts.The children will certainly have keepsakes one way or another of their father, but I don't think all keepsakes are as good as others. Even with a photo book, for example, the children will most cherish things directly given to them by their father. The book is special in a different way. You wouldn't bother to suggest, I don't think, that if your father could have a nice photo book that it wouldn't be at least as treasured as the other photos; a whole book, dedicated to his parents. It would be mighty special, don't you think? Couldn't you be brought to think, perhaps, it would be even more cherished than the other photos, by just a little?Also, kids grow up and realize the value of things more clearly over time. Even a kid who couldn't understand the importance of something an adult "needlessly" fussed over would come to very much appreciate it later on.And finally, it just seems very strange to me that instead of taking CG's words, along with those of his wife, and believing that they reflect their true feelings, you are suspecting they really are thinking (or more strangely, should be thinking) something else. If anyone has to resort to that type of argumentation, it's because they don't have a good argument to begin with.

Couple things:

One, "arm twisting"? I have a funny feeling you are quoting me. Would you provide the whole quote from 7/23/2012? Thanks!

Two, I became frustrated and defensive for no reason. Is that what you believe, really, matter-of-factly? Or is it what you want to believe because it fits an agenda? You seem to freely concede that the LRC is full of cynicism. Do you think there is no possibility that that cynicism prompted my frustration and defensiveness?

My real frustration is that this could have been done by now.

Don't believe it. It is NOT too much!

To help Cancer Guy