MJ's 19.32 Legit or on Drugs

The cheats are under medical supervision, so they are well taken care of. You may as well throw the HJ record up there if were going to look at more than running events, now that we know courtesy of belated IAAF remarks that Sotomayor was one of the most drug laced athletes to ever grace the sport. SP - probably dirty. DT - probably dirty. I also enjoy the sport, but am aware at the highest levels it is chemical warfare. Unbalanced chemical warfare at that. It turns out our (US) sprinters were enjoying cover ups courtesy of US officials for years and years, and stories are that the E. Africans are enjoying the same type of protection at the moment, witness Lagat and his "false positive". Sad state of affairs that is indeed slowly killing the sport.

The inside word is that Komen was clean, just a freak, which is why he could not stay at the top for very long, and could not always do it on the day - because he was clean and was human in his performances. All the rest I would say are dirty.

What is your reasoning to say Bekele is "more likely" to be dirty than El G??? What evidence has been put forward to indicate one is more likely to be ondrugs that another??

I'll throw in my own two cents:

100m: Montgomery's tainted. Record belong's to Greene, who I believe is not using.

200m: I don't have reason to believe that this was more than the right athlete under the right training at the right time. It's a freak performance either way, but I'll consider it clean until HARD EVIDENCE disputes it.

400m: see above

800m: I have no reason to suspect Wilson K. A 46s Kenyan seems like a good candidate to take on Coe's WR.

1000m: No reason to suspect Ngeny. Lot's of people say that he fell off dope after the Olympics given his lack of performance in season afterwards, but if newspapers are reporting he was in a car accident, I'll believe it until otherwise.

1500m: North Africans have a bad reputation, but w/o hard evidence, I consider it clean.

Mile: See above

2000m: See above

3000m: I'd be very suprised and disappointed if Kim was doping his runners. I think Komen was the most talented runner who never got his day. I think Kim probably burned him a little too much on intensity and coupled with his desire to make his money and run, I'd say that's why he had such a short period of brilliance.

2 miles: see above

5000m: I believe that the Ethiopians (all who train under Ethiopian coaches) are clean. To my way of thinking, they represent the possibility of what a nationalized program in a country of talent can do.

10000m: See above.

110mHH: My thinking tells me that if I can count on one sprint record being clean, it's this one. I odn't think that Colin is the type of runner to dope.

400mIH: Unfortunately, Ed Moses is the rightful world record holder and everyone in the sprint world knows it. I'd be amazed if Felix can come within tenths of a second during his career (but if any can, it's him -- he's much faster over 400m than Moses was).

4x100mR: Both had Mitchell on there, so I have to discount them. It's too bad b/c no one ran the final curve like that man.

4x400mR: Jerome Young is tained, and as he is the leadoff leg, I can't count it.

HJ: It seems to be common knowledge that Javier was doped. I would like to see some evidence towards this, aside from his cocaine use. It's still amazing to see him get over 8ft.

PV: I ahve no reason to suspect that Bubka was doped.

LJ: No reason to suspect Powell.

TJ: No reason to suspect Edwards.

SP: Hugely doped. Barnes was banned for life after his second positive and if you look at the tape of his WR he looks like a human tick.

DT: Almost certainly doped (1980s, no out of comp testing).

HT: See above

JV: I've got no reason to suspect Zalenzy. Thankfully enough, since they altered the jav, the old 1984 (and likely doped) Wr beocmes moot and Jan's 1996 WR stands. And if you look at him, he doesn't look overly muscular.

Decathalon: no reason to suspect.

Womens (most of these are going to be BS)

100m: Doped and wind aided.

200m: Doped.

400m: See 100m comments.

800m: Doped.

1000m: Doped

1500m: Doped.

2000m: One of the few likely to be clean.

3000m: Seriously doped (this is nto liek the men's 7:20 WR where a 3:40 1500m is irregular, lot's of avg. guys run it. But how often does a woman run 4:03, never mind run it back to back).

5000m: Believable. Don't much about Elvan but it's nice to see one of Ma's girl's records go down

10000: Sorry, Wang. I just don't see it. In 1992 you're losing by a fair margain to Paula Radcliffe at the WJCCC in Boston. The next year you're running 8:06 for 3k and 29:31 for 10k with a 14:29 second half. That's a BIG improvement. That or you're running on a 400y track or something.

100mHH: Doped

400mHH: Could be genuine -- doping ocntrol is the best it's ever been.

4x100mR: Doped.

4x400mR: Doped.

Don't know enough about the women's field events to comment.

trackhead, I have to agree with you on all of your suggestions. You are one of the few reasonable people on this forum, and you actually know how to spell too! Thanks for the insight.

I think it's kind of sad that people don't have enough faith in Olympic athletes to believe that extrodinary events are possible on any given night. Yes, 19.32 is unbelievable, but Johnson passed his drug test. The human race and training methods are continually evolving and records continue to fall. Look at Usain Bolt, a SEVENTEEN year-old running a 19.93 recently. Was he on drugs? Unless an athlete tests positive, have some faith that the extraordinary is possible.

I vote legit.

MJ didn't come out of nowhere. He was good for a long time, and got better each year, finally getting some consistency over his injuries. We were waiting for a long time for him to finally bust a 400 loose, and he never really did.

The 200 was mind bending, but enough about that. If he had been doping, I would expect he would've had a 42.06 400 or something similarly extraordinary. Remember, Ato and Frankie blazed the track at the same time, just slightly further behind MJ than usual.

Nice touch on the 'seriously doped' women's 3k - what did she have extra turtle soup that day?

What makes you think Mo' Greene is clean? (Not a loaded question...)

redmeansdead wrote:

I think it's kind of sad that people don't have enough faith in Olympic athletes to believe that extrodinary events are possible on any given night. Yes, 19.32 is unbelievable, but Johnson passed his drug test. The human race and training methods are continually evolving and records continue to fall. Look at Usain Bolt, a SEVENTEEN year-old running a 19.93 recently. Was he on drugs? Unless an athlete tests positive, have some faith that the extraordinary is possible.

I respect your opinion, but when you (and countless others) state "Johnson passed his drug test," are you taking into account the FACT that there has NOT been a test for human growth hormone? There may be a test ready to catch folks this summer, but athletes have been safely using it for well over a decade with ABSOLUTELY NO RISK of getting caught. I know this isn't proof, but saying he "passed his drug test" is weak.

BDG

Good point. I was just being optimistic.

Just from talking with guys who are in high level sprint circles, who are coaching world ranked sprinters right now. When we were talking about the whole BALCO deal, we agreed that it was very likely that it was Graham that sent in the sample, especially considering the money he lost when Marion and Tim left. But I was told that it would be very very suprising had John Smith had anything to do with the matter.

Additionally, Mo was hurt from somepoint in 2001 until the end of 2003 -- correct me if I'm wrong but isn't hGH supposed to help heal injuries? I would think that if he was using a cocktail of steroids and hormones he would have been back mcuh quicker.

You could argue the same for MJ in 1997 when he had a decidedly subpar year, battling a hamstring injury that was evident after his 200m WR.

Trackhead

I enjoyed your list - but I was a bit surprised to see that you suspected Kevin Young of doping/cheating. I'd not heard that his record was considered tainted (although, at 46.7, it is pretty amazing).

What's the story behind this?

Martin

I realise it's all hearsay but just about every top sprint coach I've spoken with said, "Ah, he was on drugs. He was never the same again."

This almost universal sentiment, combined with the fact that he PR'd by more than 1.0s in 1992 and then quickly disappeared after 1993, convinces me that it's not just BS; that they're right.

Kevin Young was coached by John Smith, and I do not believe that John Smith would ever allow his athletes to use drugs. I've been to the HSI practices before and spoken to John Smith and he's one of the most respectful people I've ever met.

Kevin Young's 46.78 at the Barcelona Olympics was a freak performance, like MJ's 19.32 or Beamon's 29'2.5". He beat his personal best by over a second in that meet. Remember that he was also world champ in 1993 with a very fast time as well, but nowhere near 46.78. It's not like he came and disappeared as fast as FloJo did.

You know, I completely agree with you on the John Smith part. I've met John, and although I don't know him as well as I do others, without exception he is known as a standup guy.

But someone (not necessarily John) was providing dope to UCLA athletes. This is something that I need to investigate further.

It's a very interesting story, because the same coach that told me that Young was using, also told me that he would never believe that Smith dopes his runners.

Was Young involved with the DuBus crowd - or did he go with Everett over to SMTC?

I'm not saying I don't believe you (I suspect your West Coast connections are pretty solid) but it's not something I've heard before. Still ...

I'm going to be seeing some of my sprint-friends in Sacramento (I'll be there for a few days starting today). I'll be interested to see what they say.

So:

I think that Young was enhanced, given his huge improvement and quick disappearance from the sport, and the consistent talk of his use --- but --- I think that Smith is an honest coach and wouldn't dope his runners. I'll be interested what I can find out.

Everyone don't know... wrote:

thin mondo wrote:The thickness of the track. Everyone knows the track was thin and compressed. Helps sprinters a lot. TAFNEWS commented on it years ago.

So this is a world wide conspiracy, eh?

What's "thin and compressed" mean? Supposed to be a quarter-inch thick and they beat it down to a sixteenth?

They used a 5-ton roller instead of a 500-pounder?

Everyone don't know...what if they put the thin part in the wrong lanes? It would take more work to make it uniformly nonconforming...did they hire extra inspectors trained to check for being out of spec in a certain direction--if not, they might get a legal on the straights, thin, illegal, and fast on the curves...oh, that's how he ran such a great turn...ohhhhhhh, that's why they tore it up that night right after the race....ohhhhhh

bull

Cut the bull shit and stop veering from the question which was is johnson on drugs not was the atlanta track too f***ing thin.