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800 Meters Mad Scientist
Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 1:36AM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It would be so cool to see an elite run a first lap in 52... well behind the leaders... then bust a 49.xx second lap to smoke everyone.

Not sure if it's physiologically possible (or if the way the 800 goes down would prevent it) but it would sure be fun to see some random flying past everyone on the back straightaway of the second lap for the come-from-behind victory.
casual commentary
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 1:42AM - in reply to 800 Meters Mad Scientist Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHid-nC45k

the closest you'll get at the top ranks.
A Duck
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 2:07AM - in reply to 800 Meters Mad Scientist Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
800 Meters Mad Scientist wrote:

It would be so cool to see an elite run a first lap in 52... well behind the leaders... then bust a 49.xx second lap to smoke everyone.

Not sure if it's physiologically possible (or if the way the 800 goes down would prevent it) but it would sure be fun to see some random flying past everyone on the back straightaway of the second lap for the come-from-behind victory.



Rudisha could do it.
den bosch
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 2:17AM - in reply to A Duck Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
That's like saying why don't more marathoners start out in 64... well behind the leaders at 62:00... then bust out a 60:xx to smoke everybody. That's an unnecessarily difficult way to win.
look here
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 7:01AM - in reply to den bosch Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Sammy plays with yo Mammy
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 7:30AM - in reply to 800 Meters Mad Scientist Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Negative splitting is inefficient.
toro
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 7:41AM - in reply to 800 Meters Mad Scientist Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Here is Kipketer in positive splits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_C5SDNRyDw

48/53 - 1:41


And Kipketer in negative splits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APWABpNlStE

53/52 - 1:45
ventolin^3
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 8:00AM - in reply to Sammy plays with yo Mammy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Sammy plays with yo Mammy wrote:Negative splitting is inefficient.


the main ( only ) argument in favour is the atp-cpk system ( commonly quoted as "use it or lose it" in 1st coupla 100m )

however, atp-cpk regenerates & is only exhausted in a flat out sprint ( 100m race )

no one has offered a paper where it doesn't show that if you don't go flat out 1st coupla 100m ( which you don't in an 800m ), that you don't exhaust it all & in fact may regenerate some as well for final coupla 100m

the answer to the physiology/biochem of +ve/-ve splits will come from someone doing this research
afasdfasdf
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 8:02AM - in reply to 800 Meters Mad Scientist Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
For most runners, it just doesn't work as well as a 2-3 sec positive split. Empirical results have illustrated it quite well.
ventolin^3
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 8:09AM - in reply to ventolin^3 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
anyhows, leaving aside biology, looking at physics/math, lets see what that yields if an elite goes chasing a time in tt with slower 1st lap than usual

lets'say 51.0 opener

now, he shoud have wabbit from 150 - 400, offering 1s/lap drafting, or 0.625s advantage

in reality, he has put in 51.625s "effort"

2nd lap is flying ( & i find 0.75s is good number for that compared to open 400 from relay analysis )

51.625 effort for 2nd lap shoud therefore be ~ 51.625 - 0.75 = 50.875

therefore, the end time for even effort from gun -> tape for 51.0 to bell, with wabbit 150 - 400 is

~ 51.0 + 50.875 =

1'41.87

with error involved, i'd just call it running even splits for the 2 laps
ventolin^3
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 8:49AM - in reply to look here Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
look here wrote:
http://www.athleticsweekly.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2242


ryun's splits :

Jim Ryun 880yds 53.30/51.6 Split -1.7 Terra Haute 1966


were by "accident" rather than design

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkTPCspfwCI

ill & on top that a 1'50 in his legs from just 3 hours before

obviously, healthy & rested ( no prelim ), he wouda gone helluva lot quicker than 1'44.4 ( 1'44.9y )

i've read it was primitive semi-synthetic track made by grasstex
( tyre shavings + some detritus combo, to allow racing in rain ( "all-weather" track ), rather than any conscious effort to make a faster track )

offer him 1s compared to '70s synthetic ( instead of 2s for normal dirt ) + 1s for not being ill/1'50 prelim & you gotta believe that was low-1'42 at worst

he was much stronger/faster in '67 when he smashed his 1500pb by 2.5s ( & that was shit race, jogging for 300m before taking off in 95F )

that's a reason i reckon high/mid-1'40 shape in '67
sub 1:42
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 8:53AM - in reply to 800 Meters Mad Scientist Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
800 Meters Mad Scientist wrote:

It would be so cool to see an elite run a first lap in 52... well behind the leaders... then bust a 49.xx second lap to smoke everyone.



Almost nobody can run 1:41.xx period. While it certainly would be cool to see someone run sub 1:42 while negative splitting, I'm not really surprised that it never happens.
ummmmmmmmm no
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 10:01AM - in reply to afasdfasdf Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
afasdfasdf wrote:

For most runners, it just doesn't work as well as a 2-3 sec positive split. Empirical results have illustrated it quite well.


Ummm...actually no. Wrong on both counts.

1) An even split works best.

2) You are going to have to show "empirical results" to claim them. And no, a few non-randomly selected data points do not constitute empirical results.
Sammy plays with yo Mammy
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 10:07AM - in reply to ventolin^3 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
ventolin^3 wrote:

however, atp-cpk regenerates & is only exhausted in a flat out sprint ( 100m race )

no one has offered a paper where it doesn't show that if you don't go flat out 1st coupla 100m ( which you don't in an 800m ), that you don't exhaust it all & in fact may regenerate some as well for final coupla 100m



Are you suggesting that the anaerobic alactic fuel stores replenish DURING an 800? It's hard to tell based on your triple negative sentence there.
Funny to Hear
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 10:24AM - in reply to casual commentary Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
casual commentary wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHid-nC45k

the closest you'll get at the top ranks.


Interesting to listen to the commentary on that video. "He's got one Kenyan..." as if these are not individuals but rather the Kenyan robots. Similar to many Americans' attitudes today in looking at marathon runners. There are a bunch of individuals and there are the Kenyans.
Too much
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 10:32AM - in reply to 800 Meters Mad Scientist Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
would be cool but it is very very very likely not possible physically/physiologically. If it were, people would be doing it. Ask any top 800 guy and they will tell you it cant be done.
Any way you want it
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 10:37AM - in reply to Too much Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Too much wrote:

would be cool but it is very very very likely not possible physically/physiologically. If it were, people would be doing it. Ask any top 800 guy and they will tell you it cant be done.


Apart from the fact that Rudisha just neg split at 52/50 at altitude.
elton
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 10:40AM - in reply to ventolin^3 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
ventolin^3 wrote:
no one has offered a paper where it doesn't show that if you don't go flat out 1st coupla 100m ( which you don't in an 800m ), that you don't exhaust it all & in fact may regenerate some as well for final coupla 100m


This is ridiculously bad writing. I'm not even taking issue with the content of the statement as it's just about impossible to parse.
dean moriarty
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 11:04AM - in reply to casual commentary Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Indeed, and Wottle ran even splits - 26.x for every 200.
pr100
RE: Why don't more elites try to negative split the 800? 6/26/2012 11:28AM - in reply to ummmmmmmmm no Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
ummmmmmmmm no wrote:

[quote]afasdfasdf wrote:

For most runners, it just doesn't work as well as a 2-3 sec positive split. Empirical results have illustrated it quite well.


Ummm...actually no. Wrong on both counts.

1) An even split works best.

2) You are going to have to show "empirical results" to claim them. And no, a few non-randomly selected data points do not constitute empirical results.[/quote]

In the 800m most (all?) WR runs have come off a positive splits - it's not a few randomly selected data points - it's the way it goes in fast 800m races. All of Rudisha's, Kipter's and Coe's WRs came from positive splits.
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