Its not Rocket Science why Webb is struggling, i can see it why cant he and Vig?

good stuff... that would be sweet seeing webb mix it up in those xc invitationals. i really hope he comes back. the dude needs to release his rage in a sick 1500m and beat lagat. only this time when he pounds the ground, the earth will shake. READ THIS ALAN AND GET PUMPED!@.

This is exactly true. Once Webb left Alberto, I said that he would never run faster, and my prediction has come true. This is not necessarily because Alberto is a better coach, but simply because Alberto was giving more 5k oriented training (and not 800 like Vig). Webb's lactic system in all probability is fried and needs to be restored with at least 4 months of quality aerobic work only.

Wow, if two message board posters can see it, why couldn't the coaches???

I'm with you... Although, I wouldn't let him have the whole summer off. It could REALLY put him at Square 1 come the fall (14:40 5K, 4:15 mile shape?). And that's bad news.

He's not 18 years old, where getting in shape happens fast. Plus, that base you speak of would really be lacking upon his return. Difficult to run fall XC invites then.

Yes. AW was an excellent cross country runner. How long has it been since he did that? But now is the time for the birth of his daughter and the beginning of his new life as a father. Forget about serious training until after Labor Day. Then start up slow but sure... big fall base... maybe aim for XC nationals in February. See where it leads...

"The Bowerman philosophy had always been that it was great to run over autumnal landscapes, but only insofar as it made you better at running over a vernal landscape, the track. The fall atmosphere was meant to be one of renewal and going back to basics..." -Kenny Moore in "Bowerman and the Men of Oregon"

I'm with ya wrote:

Yes. AW was an excellent cross country runner. How long has it been since he did that? But now is the time for the birth of his daughter and the beginning of his new life as a father. Forget about serious training until after Labor Day. Then start up slow but sure... big fall base... maybe aim for XC nationals in February. See where it leads...

"The Bowerman philosophy had always been that it was great to run over autumnal landscapes, but only insofar as it made you better at running over a vernal landscape, the track. The fall atmosphere was meant to be one of renewal and going back to basics..." -Kenny Moore in "Bowerman and the Men of Oregon"

True. And exactly why things eventually went to manure under Dellinger. Dellinger forgot the renewal part. And he forgot that each athlete was an individual. And he forgot Bowerman's other edict: Better to be under trained than over trained.

Bowerman built a beautiful system influenced by his pre-med studies, his studies of other coaches all over the world, his studies and time with Lydiard in NZ.

Dellinger wasn't too bright, burned out athletes, and let them burn themselves out, ala Salazar.

Salazar to his great credit, learned the lesson, and went back to Bowerman's most important principle -> never over train. Now, that isn't to say that there isn't a lot of hard training involved...but Salazar has become an uber Bowerman in the monitoring of his athletes health.

Well in Dellinger's defense, he was trying to win NCAA titles while competing against the influx of older foreign athletes from WSU and UTEP.

Salazar isn't paid to win NCAA titles and answer to an athletic director, but to coach individuals.

As for all Webb needs to do is build a big base. Maybe he likes to do speedwork and hates doing marathon training. It looks like running was becoming such a burden especially with the added attention of being under Salazar (at one point it seemed like we were getting daily updates) that he just said "screw it" and chose a training system that he liked to do as opposed what may be best for him.

Besides, go tell Seb Coe and his 2 gold medals that he needed to build a big base. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat for milers.

Webb is running like he doesn't have achilles tendons. He gets no bounce in his step. Almost like he has no lower legs that function.

My thinking is if he wants to remain a professional athlete to get his lower leg flexibility checked and improved. Improve his calf and tendon reflex response and plantarflexion/dorsiflexion range of motion.

Webb looked horrible. If he had some bounce in his step he'd be running where he should be, low 3:30's/13:30.

But he had absolutely no bounce in his step at all.

Exactly.... wrote:

This is exactly true. Once Webb left Alberto, I said that he would never run faster, and my prediction has come true.

Webb already never ran faster? I didn't realize he's retiring.

Webb should start swimming. Today.

His best running came after years of developing a solid aerobic base through swimming. It was only with that base that he was able to do the running needed to make him the Greatest Miler in American History.

Maybe Webb should transition to triathlons

Do you realize where that "bounce in the step" comes from?

His talent just went away.

That's all.

Seriously, he hasn't had a 24 month cycle of consistant training under the same system and hasn't been completely healthy.

"Besides, go tell Seb Coe and his 2 gold medals that he needed to build a big base. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat for milers"

Seb ran way more miles than most people think. The reason for that is that he always only mention the quality miles...

"The Bowerman philosophy had always been that it was great to run over autumnal landscapes, but only insofar as it made you better at running over a vernal landscape, the track. The fall atmosphere was meant to be one of renewal and going back to basics..." -Kenny Moore in "Bowerman and the Men of Oregon"

Can someone explain this a tad? I'm not familiar with some of the words here.

Thanks in advance.

There can be many reasons why Webb has yet to run fast. Not having a good strength base is certainly a good reason. But at the same time we do not know the specifics of his training regimen, so we cannot just assume that he is only running 40 miles per week.

Here's the real reason why he isn't reaching his potential: because he changes coaches on a regular basis.

Look at the progression: raczko --> warhust --> raczko --> maybe temporary independent training --> salazaar -- > vig

the guy is just too stubborn and cant fully commit to one coach. As was implied in the Jason Bourne movies, he simply cannot give himself to the program. He basically runs with a coach for some time and as soon as things aren't looking good he decides to start fresh again. His body is going through way too many training systems. Look at guys like El Guerrouj, Rudisha, Bekele, Lagat, Symmonds....they've all stuck with the SAME coach for god knows how long. With such a commitment, a coach truly knows the athlete and knows when the push them and when to reign them in. Webb needs to take some time off, stick with a good coach who can offer the world's best resources, and where he can train with top athletes (hint: Salazaar). Training by yourself or just with Robbie Andrews can only take you so far.

I know I'm just a Letsrun-nobody, and I don't really know anything about Webb's life. But sometimes a bunch of nobodies, on the outside looking in, can see things more clearly. Of course, I'm sure many of the seemingly questionable decisions you've made over the years made sense to you based on what was going on in your personal life. And I won't pretend to understand all that. But in a more simple world, where running fast and winning races are of utmost importance, I have some advice. I'm sure you've heard it before, but it bears repeating. Mr. Webb, if you do decide to get back in the game eventually and keep fighting.....I've got five words for you:

FIVE. THOUSAND. METERS.

ALBERTO. SALAZAR.

uncle jasper wrote:

Maybe Webb should transition to triathlons

Not a bad idea. He was a great high school swimmer. Screw around for a summer, do some triathlons, stay in reasonable shape, have fun, unwind, and get back to running when the fire comes back.

It worked for Brendan Hansen, the multiple time olympian swimmer who got his fire back with an off-season of triathlon/informal training.

I say this not as a critic, but as someone who enjoyed seeing Webb in his prime and would love to see him revitalize American running and tear up the track.

I think the man needs a good long break from running. The stresses of injury, changing coaches, new training partners, new training regimens, his child and the time crunch to make the Olympics have put too much stress on his body. He needs to rest and recover and focus on being a parent for a little while.

I think 2012 should be spent running when he has free time and would like to, for long, easy mileage to fall in love with the sport again. I think it's become to much of a job and less of a passion for him. Once 2013 rolls around he can amp up the hard mileage and speedwork and all the other components of an elite training schedule.

I think he needs to maintain a better diet, even when not in the peak of his training. He needs to revisit cross training ideas such as swimming, cycling or both. I also agree, he should move up in distance. He is not as young as he once was and it appears the speed may just be gone. I think he'd benefit from the strong aerobic base if he became a 5K/10K runner who used the occassional 1500 as a measure of speed.

Alan Webb is a talnted young man and has medals and records to attest to that. What he needs is time away from it all to recenter and refocus his life, get his home life travelling in the right direction and then come back to running. I'd love to see him come back and fight for one last Olympic 10K spot in 2016 to defy all odds. Best of luck to you Webb.

Hanging over all of this is Webb's overcompetitiveness/impatience. Forget base mileage and coaching changes. I just think Webb can't get out of his own way mentally. Read "Sub 4:00" and you'll hear everything you need to. He seems plagued by self-doubt and if Raczko, who coached Webb from his freshman year of high school to his greatest professional achievements (minus Webb's stint at Michigan), couldn't rein him in, then no one but Webb is going to be able to.

I still think Webb can get back to a competitive level of fitness and have late-career successes, but in order to do it he's going to have to give himself over entirely to Vig or another coach, trust in their methods and long-term plans, and ride out the rest of his career with them. Not sure he can make the mental commitment, but I hope he does.