Renato Canova: How does an American high school student train between track and cross country in the summer like Kenya?

MR. RENATO CANOVA, PLEASE RESPOND!

[quote]Praise Mr. RENATO CANOVA wrote:

MR, RENATO CANOVA

How does a 17 year old American high school student with horrible endurance, who has always trained at about 64 kilometers per week (40mpw) with mostly interval workouts, train over the summer in preparation for cross country (5000m) after track season has ended, the Kenyan way?

*54/400m

*2:00/800m

*2:35/1000m

*4:25/1600m

*10:05/3200m

*17:15/5000m[/quote

Read the book born to run. Kenyans never run in shoes until they are pros. This makes them faster. Also, gradully build your mpw up to as high as you can,(80 or so)

MR. RENATO CANOVA?

Train for the 800 runner.

You have a 2:00 800 and go 17:15 for 5000??

Jesus. Maybe stick to the 8/15?

If you insist on doing XC and longer races, though, just run. Like more than the 40mpw you've been doing. Start with 8 miles M-F, 12 on Sat. Then make them longer. Any pace you want. You sure can't make that endurance any worse.

This strategy, by the way, is called "Summer Of Malmo."

Not Canova, but if you want to look at training the RC way, you've got to start with the specific stuff, which will be in Late Oct-November (unless you're planning on running post-state championships like FL or NXN in December). At that time, you'll need to be able to handle 5-6K worth of intervals at race pace with fairly short rest. All other training is to support this.

According to Canova, the runner should get to the "special period" about two months or so before peaking time. So for a high schooler that's going to be around the beginning to middle of September. At that time they should be able to handle that 5-6K worth of intervals, but with the intervals being shorter and the recovery longer. Also, there should be a good amount of 8-12K runs done around 87% of current RP (For a 16:00 5K runner, that would be about 5:45-5:50 pace)

So your goals from June-August should be:

1. Run short intervals with long recovery until you can total them to around 6K; ex. 40 x 150m, 30 x 200m. These shouldn't feel like sprints, as they will basically be your 5K pace.

2. Run long intervals and/or "tempos" slower than race pace, but noticeably faster than your easy days. Once you can handle around 10K, keep it there and you should see the times for these runs get faster without an increase in effort.

3. Keep your other runs around a hour or less, but run them as frequently as possible. More miles is almost always better, but you should always feel rested during the summer.

Good luck, based on your 400m time, I wouldn't expect too much of an 800/1000/1600m improvement without a good amount of time spent on form and general strength drills, but hopefully you can get your 3200/5000m to line up more like: 9:30/15:45

Lenny Leonard wrote:

According to Canova

That doesn't look like Canova training.

Do you have a link where he has posted such workouts?

too obvious to need Canova wrote:

You have a 2:00 800 and go 17:15 for 5000??

Jesus. Maybe stick to the 8/15?

If you insist on doing XC and longer races, though, just run. Like more than the 40mpw you've been doing. Start with 8 miles M-F, 12 on Sat. Then make them longer. Any pace you want. You sure can't make that endurance any worse.

This strategy, by the way, is called "Summer Of Malmo."

Without doubles it doesn't have a ton of resemblance to SOM.

I was thinking about getting up to 80-100 mpw in doubles, I really don't have or want to do anything else this summer but train. I will do the first run at around sunrise then eat, chill, and take a nap etc, then I will start my second run at around noon.

Available to me is:

*9 mile completely flat fast dirt path

*15 mile half hilly loop

*And other various loops

making things up wrote:

That doesn't look like Canova training.

Do you have a link where he has posted such workouts?

I think the big thing with Canova is that the workouts themselves are not all that revolutionary, but the way he lays out his training cycles is somewhat unique. Rather than following the more widely-used, linear plan of (SLOW, HIGH MILEAGE - LONG INTERVALS - SHORT, FAST INTERVALS), it is more like a bi-linear progression from both short-and-fast and long-and-not-so-fast until you reach RACE SPECIFIC TRAINING. Mileage is important, but it is not the ultimate goal like with so much of American training.

It's quite simple, but it's not what most American coaches do.

Mr. Renato Canova?

Lenny Leonard wrote:

blah

What you posted is NOT according to Canova.

From the link you provided, Canova has posted the training below.

Renato Canova wrote:

SPECIFIC TRAINING : is all the Training including speeds between 95 and 105% af the speed of the race. For a middle distance runner, SPECIFIC is TO RUN, and nothing else.

5000m

- 15 x 400 in 60" rec. 45"

- 10 x 600 in 1'30" / 1'32" rec. 1'30" / 2'

- 6 x 1000 in 2'32" / 2'36" rec. 2' / 3'

- 3 x 2000 in 5'15" / 5'20" rec. 3' / 4'

- 3000 in 8' + 2000 in 5'15" + 1000 in 2'32", rec. 5' / 6'

Here is a more comprehensive summary of Canova's training principles, for those interested:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4058716

Read Renato's opinion on my interpretation, and a more direct statement of his philosophy, here:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4465229&page=1

15 x 400m = 6000m

10 x 600m = 6000m

6 x 1000m = 6000m

3 x 2000m = 6000m

3000 + 2000 + 1000 = 6000m.

Is that not the same thing I quoted?

Anyway, the point is you can't just go from running easy all summer to doing those workouts. You have several variables you can changes as the season progresses:

1. Global Volume: ex. 6000m of intervals vs. 3000m

2. Duration of Tests: ex. 200m vs 2000m

3. Duration of Rest: ex. 45 sec rest vs. 3 min. rest

4. Speed: ex. 4:00/mile vs. 6:00/mile

I think we can agree that the Global volume should be around 6000m for a 5K runner, and the speed is race pace (by the time the specific phase comes around)

Before that, you are either reducing the duration of the rest, or increasing the duration of the tests. The only other variable would possibly be increasing speed, but you wouldn't do that while simultaneously changing other variables.

Is that not what Canova is saying?

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Is that not the same thing I quoted?

No, it is not.

[quote]Lenny Leonard wrote:

around the beginning to middle of September. At that time they should be able to handle that 5-6K worth of intervals, but with the intervals being shorter and the recovery longer

Run short intervals with long recovery until you can total them to around 6K; ex. 40 x 150m, 30 x 200m

Is that not what Canova is saying?

No, it is not.

Canova does not say anywhere to run 40x150m with long recoveries.

In fact he says to LENGTHEN the recoveries, for example for 1k repeats, when getting to top condition.

This is why Renato needs to write another book or have a website, so people don't publish misinterpretations of his training.

making things up wrote:

In fact he says to LENGTHEN the recoveries, for example for 1k repeats, when getting to top condition.

This is why Renato needs to write another book or have a website, so people don't publish misinterpretations of his training.

I've noticed this as well in his schedules and whatnot. Quite long recoveries in the specific period.

Any insight on to why that is? It differs somewhat form Hudson who does a similar convergence thing with a final specific period but in that Hudson reduces recovery to the point of the last workout or two being just 60 seconds. Canova seems to usually have 2-3 mins for the longer intervals.

Oftentimes, more. The reason the recovery is long is that the important part is the specificity of the effort--so if you are doing 2ks at 10k pace, they'd darn well better be AT TEN K PACE, not getting slower.

too obvious to need Canova wrote:

If you insist on doing XC and longer races, though, just run. Like more than the 40mpw you've been doing. Start with 8 miles M-F, 12 on Sat. Then make them longer. Any pace you want. You sure can't make that endurance any worse.

This strategy, by the way, is called "Summer Of Malmo."

No it isn't. This has nothing to do with SOM.

making things up,

You are right that people don't understand RC's training.

I will state up front that I don't understand it enough to help the OP. There have been several threads showing that Northern star doesn't either.

You certainly do not understand it. I don't know if Lenny Leonard does but quoting anything about the specific phase related to what the OP should be doing over the summer is clearly wrong.

I think the problem comes when you and others can quote from the final phases of training for 13:00 guys. You might even be able to scale the training down to a 14:00 or even 15:00 guy and not do much harm.

The question is what would RC do to train a high school kid or an 18:00 hobby jogger? It is very unclear if people who need that much improvement can train anything like a pro.

For example, Malmo and Hodge say start doubles right away and throw in a few workouts but the details of those workouts are secondary compared to running twice a day.