Nicolas Kemboi got 22.7 200m speed? That's sick
That means he can run a 48.0 400m, he should be running 1500m instead of 10000m Renato!!
Nicolas Kemboi got 22.7 200m speed? That's sick
That means he can run a 48.0 400m, he should be running 1500m instead of 10000m Renato!!
Why have you to run 1500m for being No. 15 in the world, when you can be the No. 2 or 1 in 10000m and (in the future) in Marathon ? Remember that the best runners are THE FASTEST AMONG ATHLETES HAVING THE SAME ENDURANCE. So, the fact that Bekele is not beatable, at the moment, in races from 10 and 15 km, when he's in shape, IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE HAS MORE SPECIFIC ENDURANCE THAN EVERY OTHER ATHLETE. But, when he goes for 3000 and 5000m (also if he's the World Record Holder)he can lose the race, like happened in WCh 2003 and in OG 2004, BECAUSE IS LESS FAST THAN ATHLETES HAVING THE SAME SPECIFIC ENDURANCE (same for that distance, of course).
In theory, if you are the No. 2 in the world in 200m, and in front you have Michael Johnson, and you want to become the No. 1, and you have good attitude in SPECIFIC ENDURANCE (for your event), you have to move to 400m. Too many times athletes that can be better in longer distances waste a lot of years for very little improvement in the same event, and, when are already old and consumpted, decide to move directly to Marathon. This is, of sure, one of the reasons because European and American runners are no more competitive in 5000/10000 with the Africans.
Renato's point makes me think of Gebreselassie -- if I told you I had this guy, and he was running 3:32, 3:31 indoors, the Americans would jump on him as a fantastic miler, and that would be the extent of their planning. Then I would have to add, "Oh yeah, he also runs 12:39 for 5km and 26:22 for 10km and he's put up a sub42 15k and a 2:06 marathon."
trypothan wrote:
It's all "training."
Garbage. Tell this to WEbb, Ritzenhein, Kennedy, Culpepper, Goucher, Meb, and anyone good in the U.S. The work as hard or harder than Kenyans and get dusted.
It's genetics.
Trypothan,
We clearly agree. But you got one thing wrong in the above post:
Meb proven that on his VERY BEST day he can compete with/beat the East Africans in the marathon with his silver medal in the Olympics. So therefore, an American has show such an ability, punching a whole in our 'East Africans have better natural talent' theory.
Only problem with that is: Meb is FROM East Africa, and therefore his great performance actually bolsters (and does not negate) our genetic superiority argument! :-)
Sir Lance-alot wrote:
Only problem with that is: Meb is FROM East Africa, and therefore his great performance actually bolsters (and does not negate) our genetic superiority argument! :-)
And the only problem with that is your beloved theory prover got smoked by a white European from Italy!
trackhead wrote:
Renato's point makes me think of Gebreselassie -- if I told you I had this guy, and he was running 3:32, 3:31 indoors, the Americans would jump on him as a fantastic miler, and that would be the extent of their planning. Then I would have to add, "Oh yeah, he also runs 12:39 for 5km and 26:22 for 10km and he's put up a sub42 15k and a 2:06 marathon."
Let's say you're coaching high school track, and three guys named Sebastian, Steve (Ovett), and Said come out for track. All of them can run 21.7 or faster for 200 meters, but not sub-21. What event are they going to run?
I'd venture to say that in about 95% of high schools in the US, all 3 of them would become sprinters. They would ultimately move up to 400 and run in the 46-47 range (which is nowhere by US standards). Very often in the US, kids are not considered for distance events unless they are "too slow" to become sprinters. How many more potential Ryuns or Webbs might there be that waste away their athletic talents as mediocre sprinters because they're not quite "slow enough"?
21.7? I don't think so.
"Too many times athletes that can be better in longer distances waste a lot of years for very little improvement in the same event, and, when are already old and consumpted, decide to move directly to Marathon. This is, of sure, one of the reasons because European and American runners are no more competitive in 5000/10000 with the Africans."
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A question for Renato Canova, Antonio Cabral, Tinmann and the distance gurus on this board:
Then, WHEN is the proper TIMING to move up to the distance events (5000 and 10,000 m) for an athlete with a progression like this:
Mexican athlete born at Mexico City (2240 m altitude) lives and trains there.
Progresion
Year Age 800 m 1500 m
97 14 2:16.50 4:38.19
98 15 2:09.00 4:17.32
99 16 2:01.33 4:07.41
00 17 1:52.64 3:48.90
01 18 1:49.54 3:44.63
02 19 1:49.29 3:42.00
03 20 1:50.52 3:43.01
04 21 1:48.43 3:39.28
He started running at 9 years old, so his base totals 12 years of organized training or like you say "building his aerobic house" . As part of his aerobic development for this season he ran 10 km on road in 29:45 and 13:58, feels very confortable at the long distances. Trains on average 120-130 km /week.
We have made some tests to calculate his anaerobic thershold in laboratory on a treadmill:
October 28, 2004 he reached
20 km/h (3:00/km) 4.2 mmol lactate at 179/min HR
February 24, 2005 same test
20 km/h (3:00/km) 3.1 mmol lactate at 164/min HR
His best 400 m time is 50.0 and 49 seg in relay races (4x4)
Height 174 cm/wt_67.6 kg
HR at rest: 39/min
Should we direct the training to improve his speed at 800 (1:46-1:47) and 1500 m (3:35-3:36)while maintaining the aerobic capacity? or try the 5000m and try to reach a 13:28.0 ("B" standard for IAAF WC)? He has no experience at 5000 m.
What is your opinion?
Marco Velediaz
Mexico City
demblackjustdoinwhatcomenatura wrote:
And the only problem with that is your beloved theory prover got smoked by a white European from Italy!
And the only problem with YOUR attempted refutation of my theory is, that you failed to read my earlier post. I suggest you read it again. I previously wrote:
"And as far as the argument of: 'hey, sometimes a non-African nation produces a runner[such as Craig Mottram OR.....BALDINI.....] that can compete with the Africans on his best days, therefore East Africans are NOT more talented than non-East Africans' goes, what about this counter argument:
sometimes there is a female runner, like Paula Radcliffe, than can compete with international level MALE marathoners (from non-East African nations) on HER best day. When Paula ran her 2:15, wasn't she faster than ANY male in England that year?!?! And how many US runners do better than 2:15 each year??? Very few. SO........does Paula's great accomplishment mean that men are NOT genetically, ON THE AVERAGE, more talented than women at running?? Of course it does not mean that. The point is, there will always be exceptions to all rules, but such exceptions don't CHANGE or ERASE the rule. And the rule is: East Africans are more talented at distance running, on the average, than non-African runners."
SO......do you think Paula Radcliffe proves that women are not ,ON THE AVERAGE, genetically less endowed at phyiscal endeavors than men?? Does Paula prove that women are soon to the be ='s of men in distance running?? No, she does not (she DOES prove that the BEST women kick kick 99.9% of men's butts though, and that women may close the gap more in their performances compared to men). She is an exceptional case. Same with Baldini or Mottram. Do they prove that, ON THE AVERAGE, non- East AFricans can be as good as East Africans in distance running??? Of course not. There are always exceptions. Jeremy Warniner is an exception, and Pietro Mennea was exception: whites that can be at the top of the sprinting world, an area where peoples of WEST African heritage dominate. Do people REALLY think that whites could be be better in sprints in blacks if they just..........what?..... didn''t play baseball or something?!?! Or they are "culturally averse" to running fast/sprining??? That would be a good one!
It's no different in distance running: certain people have more talent than others, and there is a distance-running talent-pool of unimagineable (until recently) richness in East Africa. It's been tapped........and what a keg party it's been since!
Marco Velediaz--
Are you the guy who went to Morocco and wrote up the Hicham El Guerrouj training piece?
Renato Canova wrote:
So, the fact that Bekele is not beatable, at the moment, in races from 10 and 15 km, when he's in shape, IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE HAS MORE SPECIFIC ENDURANCE THAN EVERY OTHER ATHLETE. But, when he goes for 3000 and 5000m (also if he's the World Record Holder)he can lose the race, like happened in WCh 2003 and in OG 2004, BECAUSE IS LESS FAST THAN ATHLETES HAVING THE SAME SPECIFIC ENDURANCE (same for that distance, of course).
Specific endurance is more trainable than basic speed. Bekele is beatable. His teammates Sihine, with good training, can beat him at 10,000. He beat Gebrselassie in 26:39 with 26 seconds for the last 200.
Renato, are you going to tell Kemboi right before he lines up next to Bekele in Helsinki, "You can't beat him, run for second"? I hope not.
Also, thanks to you and Scott Douglas for the great interview.
I know -- the same for Webb. 99 out of 100 HS in the USA have that guy running the 200 and the 400 and the relay
trackhead wrote:
I know -- the same for Webb. 99 out of 100 HS in the USA have that guy running the 200 and the 400 and the relay
Webb ran well first in cross-country and the gym mile, then in shorter relays. That is the point everyone is missing; a lot of these sprinters ARE built for the sprints. There is a 51 second 400 guy at the high school in my town who runs a 6:12 mile when they time trial the first day of track.
Some of the sprinters simply cannot do distance with any effectiveness. The good distance runners are athletes who are already effective at maintaining a fast pace for a while and in ADDITION can run a quick 400. This comes down to differences in muscle fiber composition.
Sir Lance a lot, you should change your name to "dream crusher". I realize that you can never be the best without talent, but i sure hope you don't coach kids and tell them this. Let people dream, don't be an asshole.
Dear Marco, looking at the yearly progression of the athlete, we can see a "stagnation" during the last 4 years in 800m (an improvement between 18-22 years of 1.11 is very little) while, at the same time, his improvement in 1500m is ok (5.45). This fact means that the SPECIFIC TALENT of the athlete is not in direction of a high lactic endurance, but of "medium" lactic endurance supported by a good aerobic level. I have some doubt seeing the weight (67,6 kg seem to me too many for a runner 1.74 tall), so I suppose that he can be a "muscular" type of runner. But probably this is due also to the lack of long run. I think that, if this guy goes to long run (for example, twice a week 1 hr 20:00 progressive with last 20-30 min fast) he can lose 3 kg becoming about 64 kg heavy.
So, I suggest the following road :
1) Increase the mileage, and the number of training sessions per week. He can run an average of 160 km per week, going (one week every 3, during periods without competitions) also very close 190 km. This is a correct base for an athlete that is talented for longer distances.
2) Put him in some long competition on road (one HM in 62:30, per ex., and 1-2 times 10k under 29:00) in order to build a correct mentality for every type of event, playing down the idea of fatigue connected with distance
3) Go for long intervals on track (for ex., 2000/3000/2000/1000/1000/1000 with short recovery of 2/3 min, running at 10000m pace (about 2:52 per km, ex : 5:45 - 8:40 - 5:45 - 2:50 - 2:48 - 2:45) trying to maintain during the weeks the same speed, reducing recovery times
4) At the same time, go for "medium" intervals in sets (for example, 4 sets of 600/500/400/300m with 1:30 recovery, alternating speeds : 1:36 - 1:14 - 62 - 42 for the first and the 3rd set, 1:28 - 1:18 - 57 - 46 for the 2nd and the 4th set) using 5:00 recovery among the sets
5) And use full speed with very long recovery, for example 5 x 400 in 53 rec. 8:00, or 3 x 600 in 1:22 rec. 8:00, for increasing the LACTIC POWER, that is a very important part of training.
In this way, you can prepare the athlete for changing event in 3 years, but the first effect is THAT HE CAN IMPROVE IN 1500m and also in 800m (may be 3:36 and 1:47 ?). Remember always that training is WHAT YOU DO. Don't be afraid about distance, or about speed : is all the ingredients are present in a programme, the athlete can improve in every distance, IF IS AEROBICALLY TALENTED.
Renato,
This is a question about your short hill runs and the 60m sprints you referred to as Geb doing in your interview with mensracing.
I just wanted to know how often and in what part of the training period are these sprints used?
thanx in advance
Patrick
Sir Lance-alot wrote:
And the only problem with YOUR attempted refutation of my theory is, that you failed to read my earlier post. I suggest you read it again. I previously wrote:
If I failed to read it I can't read it again, but I will read it for the first time....Well, congratulations to Sir Alot-o-crap. He's invented a theory that's impossible to disprove. Every exception to his 'theory' is proof of his 'theory'! And there seemed to be quite a few exceptions in Athens: Borzakovskiy, El Guerrouj, Baldini, Xing, Noguchi (I'll leave Holmes off the list. I'm not sure if she's of East African ancestry.). Why is it when a black man or woman or a black nation develops a degree of dominance in any field, but particularly in an athletic context some tool ALWAYS trots out the genetic card? It just couldn't be intelligence, determination, drive, and passion for the sport. It has to be some talent not available to the other races of the world. It's got to be in the genes!
I agree with Mr.Bilbo Baggins - I sure hope this guy isn't a coach.
Renato,
In many of your programs, especially marathon, you use the Special Block. Two similar and hard training sessions in morning and afternoon.
My understanding of this is that it puts a very big stimulus on the body causing a supercompensation effect.
Can you tell us a bit more about how to use this type of training:
1. What pace should you use in relation to the event the athlete is preparing for
2. At what point in the program should you insert a special block, particularly in relation to a competition
3. How frequently should you use them
4. What experience (years and volume of training) should an athlete have before including Special Blocks
5. Can you give some examples of special blocks you would use for 5000m / 3000m SC
ciao
Rift Runner
Interessting question!
It was maybe implicated in your question but I would like to ask how long time before a competition you use it and how many times it is done before a major race.
Thank you for great contributions Renato!