| CoachB |
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I've got a kid who ran a 4:38, 10:09 double today. Temperature in the mid-high 90's, but humidity pretty low (central california) The temps were cooling a bit for the 3200, but the wind was kicking in pretty hard and my guy was alone from 1600 onward. Pace was kind of fast early on (2:23 at 800). Also, he has been training extremely hard the last 2 weeks, basically running through this meet. His next race is a week from tomorrow at the division 4/5 championship for our section. Top 6 advance from that meet to the section "Masters" meet, which serves as our state qualifier. His time ranks him 8th in the division right now, but most of the other guys ahead of him ran their fast times off a single. For instance, the guy ranked 5th in our division has a 10:02 under his belt, but has not actually beaten my guy head to head this year. My guy beat the 10:02 guy handily today, when they both doubled up. The top 3 times in the division are 9:34, 9:41, 9:44. After that it drops to 9:58. Since the top 6 move on to the masters meet, I'm not sure if I should encourage him to run conservative and just try to advance, saving all his juice for a huge effort at the masters meet, or if I should just tell him to sack up, go with the leaders, and risk dying. Adding to the mix is that there are team title implications. A conservative 4th does a lot more for us than 6.5 great laps then a flameout. Early in the season, I was thinking that 9:55 was a realistic goal, but watching him lately, I'm beginning to believe that he is capable of much more. |
| Running In the Rain |
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for the 3200 in perfect conditions he should be able to go 9:41 and 4:25 1600. This is according to the calculator on runworks.com |
| runner85 |
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"Since the top 6 move on to the masters meet, I'm not sure if I should encourage him to run conservative and just try to advance, saving all his juice for a huge effort at the masters meet, or if I should just tell him to sack up, go with the leaders, and risk dying." Something in between is optimal. He shouldn't be holding back and he shouldn't be running with the leaders if the race goes out too fast for him. High school kids can drop a ton of time race to race or they can plateau for a while. It is hard to say w/o knowing all of the details. However it seems like he is doing well and will probably drop some more time. I say he ends the season 9:44, but it is a random guess. GL |
| The Animal Within |
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It's just a qualifying round. Run hard enough to get to the next round. Why crush it? Go for sub 10 and advance. Let the 9:30 kids go, you'll risk not making it. |
| CoachB |
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This is my thought. I think with the next two meets being twilight (when the wind usually dies and the weather drops to the low 80s) he should be able to go mid to low 9:40s. Point of clarification. Although the meet is a qualifier for the next round, team titles and individual titles are certainly on the line. This is essentially the small schools section championship, so there is more to run for than just qualification. Plus, the following week, with a mid 9:40, he will likely be at the tail end of the pack, almost certainly no higher than 15th, so this could be his big chance for glory. |
| runner85 |
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This is not a qualifier. It is a meet, it isn't rounds of the same meet on consecutive days. This will probably be the most competitive meet so far this season. It will benefit the athlete to treat it as an important meet and not just as a qualifier. He is on track to being competitive with the 9:40 type runners, let him. |
| Flagpole |
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Here are my thoughts: 1) If 10:09 is his PR, even with training through the meet and doubling when he got that PR, it seems to me that 9:40 is a bit of a leap. He has a good day, then maybe low 9:50s, but man 9:40 is a long way away. 2) Just because he doubled doesn't mean he'll do better if he doesn't. My high school 3200 PR was set on a day in which I also ran the 1600 and an 800 leg in the 4x800 relay. 3) He definitely shouldn't go with the leaders. They may run 9:19 that day for all you know. I'd have him pick 5th place and try to stay there...if he's there and the pace is too slow after the first 1600, then bust that last 1600. 4) It's been my experience that at the end of the season, some runners come out of nowhere to bust an awesome time. Sometimes its a kid who hasn't run a 3200 all season or maybe they didn't have any real competition all season or it's just that they are in better shape. The 9:58 kid might run 9:39. The 10:02 kid might run 9:48. I know you're just trying to plan here, but don't be surprised if you see some HUGE leaps...could be your own kid though of course. I got bested by a kid in my conference as a senior in our championship meet when he improved his 3200 that day from 10:09 to 9:36. He never ran close to that fast again. I still don't know how he did that.
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| CoachB |
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9:55, 3rd place Kind of a weird race. Very windy. The favorite (9:34 guy) was doubling back. The 9:44 guy took it out hard as hell. My guy went out relatively slow for the first 600, tucking in on the 9:34 guy. They were quite a way down the main field for that first part of the race. My guy ended up in a pack that was being pulled along by the 9:34 guy. They went 68,74,74,74 to come through at about 4:50. By this point, it was the lone leader, who looked like he was going to die, then my guy in a pack of 4. I kept yelling to my guy to stay in that pack and try to cover any moves, thinking that the 9:34 guy would possibly tow my guy along to the leader eventually. The leader never truly died, but did run a pretty big positive split. My guy and the 9:34 guy pulled away from the other two guys in the pack of 4. The 9:34 guy started trying to kick to the leader with about 600 to go, but couldn't catch him. Times were 9:48,9:51,9:55,10:02,10:03,10:04. I thought for sure that the top 6 would be well under 10. I had been telling my guy that he would need to be under 10 to qualify. The wind and the fast early pace kind of blew the race apart, though and the performances ended up not beng that fast. |
| CoachB |
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Fast Forward 1 week to the Section Masters Meet. Perfect conditions, relatively conservative pace up front, big pack of guys to get pulled along in... My guy tucks into the pack early, cruises comfortably, comes through 1600 in 4:48, almost to the 2k mark and gets his heel stepped on, as he is stumbling, the guy that stepped on his heel shoves him out of the way. The magic was over, my guy was out of the zone....whatever. After getting tripped, he was still 6:02 at 2k, but then ran laps of 79,80,75, to run a 9:55. It was a one second PR from last week (which was actually a 9:56). He ended up only losing one place, as the guys that had gotten dropped off the lead pack earlier were quite a way back. 17th place overall. Not an ideal way to finish the season, but definately a lesson to take forward. The winner ended up at 9:19 and 3rd (last state qualifier) was 9:25. I've explained it like this: "You're a sophomore, you've got another year to be able to come back here and then accelerate with 3 laps to go instead of letting your ego get bruised by being bumped around a bit". |
| YDOIRUN |
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So he got bumped by Miller from TU ? Is this kid from Redwood or Monache because the kid that ran 9:55 is a JR from Monache and the kid from Redwood is a sophmore @ 9:59? |
| CoachB |
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Wrong section. We are Sac Joaquin. Redwood is NCS |
| YDOIRUN |
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My bad I thought you were from the Central Section not just from central cali...I saw the central section meet @ buchannan and didn't see what you discribed... |
| YDOIRUN |
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And the Redwood I refered to is Redwood (Visalia) former home of Justin Vilhauer... |
| What's wrong with reporters? |
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You are making more of this than it is. He ran (on successive weeks) 10:09, 9:56, 9:55 with a fall. Since he split 4:50/5:06 in the middle race, the objective can see that ... 1) he is not great at pacing yet. 2) he is nowhere near running the 9:40-45 you were predicting. That kind of 25-second improvement usually takes a year to make, not one week. You are in california and I assume he has been training well since January. Tapering was not going to produce 12-14 seconds per mile in improvement. 3) you said earlier that he went out "relatively slowly for 600" then said he went 2:22/4:50 ... that is not slow for a 9:56 performer. Kids can't help themselves and they go out in 68, but the laps after that should be steady 74-75s or close to it. You seem to have supported him going out in 4:50 which is about right for a 9:40-45 runner ... nothing slower. In case you think I am being an ass. The first time I ran 10:03 I split 4:59/5:04 and the first time I broke 10 I ran 9:56 and split 4:54/5:02. 4) He did well for a sophomore. He had no chance at a 9:25. I hope you weren't pumping him up for that as a possibility. |
| CoachB |
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No, I'm pumping him up for the possibility of him running 9:25 next year. Telling him he needs to be able to get to 2k inside of 6 minutes and then close with a sub 3:30 for the last 1200. I think he would have run under 9:50 if he hadn't been tripped. The trip simply caused reality to set in 400-600m earlier than it otherwise would have. He said he felt great before he got tripped. I think we have all had races where we were in a zone mentally, and didn't really notice the fatigue setting in, but then once we got knocked out of the zone, everything suddenly started to hurt. He still would have gotten dropped by most of the main pack as the leaders accelerated, but to end the season the way he did was kind of bittersweet, but a good lesson none the less. |
| longjack |
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too much thinking about times here. way too much. anyway, kid can do 9:4x 3200m no problem with rest and half decent conditions. |