| stumpy |
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What are the upper limits for jack daniel's "I pace" workouts? I know that it is supposed to be ~8% of weekly mileage, but is there a distance or time limit as well? |
| Guppy |
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One generally does not do more than one VO2 max session per week, and the max amount of work you can do in one session is 8k (usually more like 6-7k though), so that would be the limit. Daniels says 6 miles or 30min as the maximum in his book, which is roughly the same. |
| stumpy |
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Why is there such a discrepancy between what you recommend, about 3.5-5M, and what Daniel's recommends, 6M? Could it be the fact that the majority of runners typically run faster than true VO2 max pace and thus fade really fast after about 4M? |
| sub2half |
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If they are run between 3k & 5k pace, it seems ridiculous to do more than 10k worth of training, right? |
| Guppy |
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Generally 8k is considered the max you can do IN ONE SESSION, and if you're doing 8k worth of work, it's probably going to be 5k pace. If you're doing 3k pace, 6k-7k is probably about as much as you should do, again, in one session. There might be some weeks where one does more than one VO2 max session, or a week in which they do one VO2 max session plus a few VO2 max reps after a threshold run or something. If you do this, it would be easy to get more than 8k worth of work in. Perhaps that is where the 6 mile limit comes from from Daniels, or perhaps he thinks runners can get in as much as 6 miles in one session, I don't know. I don't have the book with me right now so I can't say. Everyone else I've read says 8k is the max. If you can do more than 8k in one session, you're not running close enough to true VO2 max pace. One could get more than that if they took very long rest breaks, but one might also be getting into the area of diminishing returns/overtraining if they did that. I don't really consider 5 miles vs 6 miles to be much of a discrepancy. In Pfitzinger's book on 5k-marathon training he recommends 4k-8k worth of work I believe, and I think (just going from memory here) that Martin and Coe say the same thing in Better Training for Distance Runners. My own experience has been that VO2 max sessions are HARD, they're supposed to be, but you should be careful not to kill yourself with them. 4xmile at 5k pace, 5x1200 @ slightly faster, or 6x1000m at roughly 3k pace is plenty of work most of the time. |
| stumpy |
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6M does seem like a lot but 6-7k seems too easy. |
| Guppy |
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Maybe you're taking too long of rest? 7x1000m @ 3k pace with 2:00-2:30 rest isn't exactly a light workout. |
| cenotaph |
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Maybe you're taking too long of rest? 7x1000m @ 3k pace with 2:00-2:30 rest isn't exactly a light workout.[/quote] I would not be able to do that workout. That is really difficult Daniels' workouts prescribed in his book are much more manageable |
| Rasputin |
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I pace is 5k pace. |
| Guppy |
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Maybe you're taking too long of rest? 7x1000m @ 3k pace with 2:00-2:30 rest isn't exactly a light workout.[/quote] I would not be able to do that workout. That is really difficult Daniels' workouts prescribed in his book are much more manageable[/quote] That was my point. Daniels' I pace is the pace which elicits VO2 max or gets you close. 5k pace is generally considered to be ~95% vVO2 max, while 3k pace is generally considered to be ~100% vVO2 max. Going off Daniels' tables, his I pace is closer to 5k pace than 3k pace if I recall. If you want to maximize VO2 max, you will have to train as close to 100% VO2 max as possible, which means approaching 3k pace. However, long rests cannot be take or else you'll spend very little time actually at VO2 max. This is why the workout is so difficult and I think 6x1k @ 3k pace with 2:30 rest is enough. That's a tough workout, despite what stumpy may think. |
| Duration not distance |
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I think all this talk about "3k pace" or "5k pace" is misleading. Sure, the fast, elite athletes can run their 7-somthing 3ks at 100% vVO2 max but that's not realistic for non-elite athletes. The time a person can run at vVO2 max is greater for elite athletes (it's related to lactate threshold). It's more like 6 minutes for everybody else. So not only can they run longer at vVO2 max, since they're faster a 3k can fit into that window. For contrast, consider a 6 minute miler. Their 3k pace is more like the 95% vVO2 max (probably even lower %) that elites do their 5ks in: the effort you can give for 12-something minutes. The idea of doing intervals is so you can get in more minutes @ V02 max. For different runners, 8x1k @ 3:00 and 6x1k @ 4:00 are both 24 minutes of V02 max running. It depends on the day for which of 8x3min or 6x4min of VO2 max running I find more unpleasant. I haven't read Daniels so I don't know which type of runner he's writing for. I just figured that I'd just point out that an individual's speed and training level determines what % of vVO2 max a runner can run a given distance for and that impacts distance-based paced recommendations. |
| Guppy |
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Correct. vVO2 max is generally considered to be your 8-11 min race pace for a well trained runner (from what I've read), so 5k pace might not actually be that close if you're really slow. I was thinking mostly of college guys etc when I wrote my post. If you're really slow you'll have to adjust. Likewise, if you're a 7:30 guy, you might want your 1k reps to actually be slower than 3k pace as 3k pace is probably faster than 100% vVO2 max (if you're following the "zone" training scheme). For most runners, 3k-5k pace is going to be near vVO2 max. |