Another weird thing about Kenyan runners is that despite the enormous potential individual rewards they seem remarkably willing to work together, and to rarely if ever come across as egomaniacal or arrogant. Despite their dominance. So weird.
Another weird thing about Kenyan runners is that despite the enormous potential individual rewards they seem remarkably willing to work together, and to rarely if ever come across as egomaniacal or arrogant. Despite their dominance. So weird.
JohnSnow wrote:
Yesterday I was talking to a Kenyan runner that just happens to be in my emt class. When I asked if he ran to school he just laughed and said, "No no that would make me sweaty and gross." He also mentioned that, including him, only 5 people in his village ran.
wesley korir, winner of yesterday's boston marathon said in an interview he ran 5 miles to school, back home for lunch, and back, was putting in over 80 miles a week when he was a little kid before he even began "training". daniel komen was similar. ran 6 mile to school, 6 back for lunch, 6 back to school after lunch, ran around at recess, and 6 back at the end of the day, that is over 20 miles a day as a kid at altitude. so maybe not all kenyans run a lot as a kid but many that are great runners did.
People forget that Europeans are completely capable of very fast times too, but are mostly still in the doldrums. Compare UK middle distance in the eighties to UK MD now. That certainly isn't genes.
nfbvrgnjuvrfv wrote:
People forget that Europeans are completely capable of very fast times too, but are mostly still in the doldrums. Compare UK middle distance in the eighties to UK MD now. That certainly isn't genes.
Yes but (a) less people are capable of it (because more are leading a sedentary life and young kids have so many non-active pursuits like video games so are less likely to be 'working' and developing their bodies in any form of training or strenuous activity and (b) those with talent are needing more 'pre-training' to get to the level where they can start training. A German coach told me "twenty+ years ago a 15 year old was generally fit and strong enough to start training properly.......now we find their bodies are less ready (ie due to sedentary and inactive lifestyles......and you need two years of gradual work before they can begin good training".
I've heard Steve Cram talk of the fact that a lot of his generation came from homes without cars or tv......they walked (and ran) far more; they played outside far more (formal sport and otherwise). Same effectively as what German coach says.
hmmmmm.... wrote:
Their nutrition may not be perfect (I have heard they eat tons of sugar), but they are not eating nearly as much as wealthy people, and that alone makes a difference.
You're assuming that sugar is per se bad. There's no evidence that this is so. Anything taken to excess can be bad for you, but if you're doing lots of exercise then sugar is a perfectly acceptable way to quickly replace some of the glycogen you've used.
It's normal for people to advocate taking sugars during or immediately after exercise to help recovery.
Something to keep in mind.
Minds built to go the distance
I believe Yobes Ondieki and Lisa Martin did have a baby...
Shannon Butler and Vicki Huber did have a baby......
3) Culture--They grow up in a culture where distance running is the shit, basically. Everyone does it, or tries to do it. This is what a kid who is in my year at university from Kenya has told me, at least (he also run a 14:20 5000 two years ago, and gave up running because he told me "I came in last"). America has great basketball, football, and baseball players because every kid plays them and wants to be the best at them. I am confident that if every kid tried running and it was a lucrative profession, America would do much better on the World stage, simply due to our population.
This is precisely what Canova has stated.
Adam C wrote:
In the film "Big Mazungo" there is an interview with Al Salazar where he comments that the typical East African 18-year old boy has run 18,000 miles more than the average American 18 year old boy. I have no idea where he got that number or if it is even accurate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtYsUhxNzNM&feature=relmfu(Go to time 2:12)
Um, ever heard of his a$$?
PREcisely wrote:
3) Culture--They grow up in a culture where distance running is the shit, basically. Everyone does it, or tries to do it. This is what a kid who is in my year at university from Kenya has told me, at least (he also run a 14:20 5000 two years ago, and gave up running because he told me "I came in last"). America has great basketball, football, and baseball players because every kid plays them and wants to be the best at them. I am confident that if every kid tried running and it was a lucrative profession, America would do much better on the World stage, simply due to our population.
This is precisely what Canova has stated.
Turning this around, if virtually any world class Kenyan runner grew up in a culture where American football was the path to fame and fortune, they'd be unknown and poor because they don't have the right morphology for that sport. Are they good at running because it is part of the culture or is running part of the culture because they are good at it?
Your right... Kip Keino would have never made a good wide receiver.
It seems like these studies are always going about things the wrong way, not isolating factors.
Are there any studies on adopted Kenyans raised in the U.S. or another country, at low altitude? Say their untrained 5k time then their trained 5 k time. How they respond to altitude training etc.?
Personally, I think the dominance can almost entirely be ascribed to a much larger pool of very low BMI individuals.
Naysayers who site Solinsky have to realize he's still darn skinny and he's far to heavy to finish in the top three of a major marathon.
Citizen Runner wrote:
PREcisely wrote:3) Culture--They grow up in a culture where distance running is the shit, basically. Everyone does it, or tries to do it. This is what a kid who is in my year at university from Kenya has told me, at least (he also run a 14:20 5000 two years ago, and gave up running because he told me "I came in last"). America has great basketball, football, and baseball players because every kid plays them and wants to be the best at them. I am confident that if every kid tried running and it was a lucrative profession, America would do much better on the World stage, simply due to our population.
This is precisely what Canova has stated.
Turning this around, if virtually any world class Kenyan runner grew up in a culture where American football was the path to fame and fortune, they'd be unknown and poor because they don't have the right morphology for that sport. Are they good at running because it is part of the culture or is running part of the culture because they are good at it?
Certainly there are bigger, stronger Kenyans than what we see dominating the roads. Not every American can excel at football and not every Kenyan excels at running.
I think another good example of the culture aspect is Mexicans and boxing. If you watch boxing you don't see a lot of white Americans at the top of the game. Mostly Mexicans or African Americans.
Why don't Americans produce top soccer players? It has never been a big part of our culture. That is changing though and in 10 or 20 years you may more America with more top players in the world (not sure if there are any now).
Jamaicans and sprinting.
Rich people and Equestrian.
You go with what you know.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
I think someone looked at it for 5 mins and is suddenly an expert
It's more to do with being born up a mountain than genes. There is a lot more to it than that but it's been done to death, read Train Hard Win Easy which was written a long time ago
Altitude is certainly a factor, but it is not the only thing. There is a high school program in Colorado, which over a 30 year period, won 25 or so state cross-country championships. Three different coaches were involved-and the high school is located at 10,000 feet. The third coach retired about a decade ago, and they have not won or even come close since. Clearly, the altitude didn't hurt, but if it was the only thing that mattered, they'd still be winning championships three years out of four.
Why are Americans such good football and basketball players?
I would like to see a blond hair blue eyed white american taken to kenya at 8 weeks old and raised in the top kenyan/ethopian running village. Wonder if the results would be similiar or not
Kenyans run fast because of altitude, running early in life, and genes. I think it's pretty dismissive to say that their genes don't play such a big part. Of course they do.
One thing I don't really agree with is that the majority of the Kenyan runners somehow train harder than the rest of the world. Elite athletes share the same great work ethic. Yes, many do work harder than others, but I would hesitate to say that working harder makes as large of an impact as some are suggesting, considering how much elite athletes already do. Some elite runners would gladly do more if they could but they are on a training program that attempts to optimize performance and doesn't include more training. It's not just how hard you train but the way you train.
Additionally, I think it's great that Kenyans and Ethiopians are such great runners. They're constantly making the rest of the world put up their own standards. It's truly great competition.
hmmmmm.... i agree with this nearly 100%. The only factor you missed is ECONOMICS. If I were working for $2 per day, I would strongly consider running especially when the pay-off could be so large. It's called Opportunity Cost. The average American would be sacrificing ~50k/year and a shot at a comfortable life when they decide to train full-time. The average Kenyan is giving up ~$700/year to work as a sustenance farmer. Talk about an incentive structure~!
hmmmmm.... wrote:
I'll preface this by saying this is just my opinion, and I am not a scientist or any type of researcher. I have just read a lot on the subject. Hopefully this doesn't come off as racist.
The Kenyan/Ethiopian Dominance is running is because of a few factors:
1) Environment...
2) Genetics...
3) Culture
4) Mentality
5) Work
Probably a little bit of everything in this post.
Economics/culture - there running is an honored and potentially high-paying endeavor. In the US, that goes to basketball, football and baseball.
Upbringing - these kids are running literally thousands of miles when they are little, likely with no shoes.
Diet - We slow our kids down by feeding them bad food their whole lives.
Its not rocket science. To be a world class runner you need:
the perfect genetics
the perfect body type and biomechanics
the right geographic conditions (altitude, weather, dirt roads, hills)
To compete and win as a world class runner you need a bit more:
Mental ability and desire to focus fully on your training
Motivation to win...$$$.
If you look at this list you will see that the E. Africans have the perfect storm of all these criteria..far and above the rest of us.
They come from hard scrabble lives with a high tolerance for pain, and the complete knowledge that a few wins sets them up for life. They have no alternative life plan besides a life of subsistence farming.
Notice I have left out diet and coaching. While these are important, its really not a make or break thing for these guys. There is nothing special about their diet, except that its all natural. Coaching is needed only to affirm to them that what they are doing is working and what needs some tweaking.
Someone said in an earlier post that running is the shit in Kenya. I can assure you that most Kenyans do not run, don't want to run and have no interest in running, its a small segment of their population that have the talent and the desire.
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