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kanny
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/12/2012 2:43PM - in reply to Sagarin Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Never mind - he's done a 28 miler before - in 2007 training for the Trials. Yikes. I can see why he's pretty much given up on the marathon.

11/2007:

"RW: Did you go back and look hard at New York last year to figure out what you did or didn't do right?
DR: I was looking back through everything we did and I look back through my log this year and it's amazing the amount of difference of mile spent at race pace and total runs that have been equal or almost equal to the distance of the marathon. Before, a 20-mile run at altitude was a long run and it was hard. Now, I've done up to 28-mile run in this training block, which is something I would not have been able to do and now I've run 24 miles at almost the same pace that I ran for the marathon last year."

http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/microsite/article/0,8029,s6-239-569--12270-0,00.html
The Red Panda
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/12/2012 7:12PM - in reply to kanny Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
In the big thread - 2 kinds of runners which are you? -

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2375989&thread=2375989

Ritz is described as a classic ST runner by Hadd and Cabral, and they suggest that for the ST runner interested in the marathon the ST runner has to keep working on improving 5K speed.
Link
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/12/2012 8:57PM - in reply to The Red Panda Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I like this! I don't know if logging 30 milers is wise, but it's gutsy. Something I'm afraid American distance runners aren't interested in being anymore. If I could be Ritz coach starting last year, I would have asked him to choose from the following:

Training plan A. 60% chance he finishes 5-9 in Olympic final. 30% chance he makes the team but finishes 10th or worse (no guarantee of making the final). 10% chance he doesn't make the team

Training plan B. 20% chance he wins medal. 20% chance he finishes 5-9. 20% chance he makes the team but finishes 10th or worse. 40% chance he doesn't make the team.

Obviously, no one can say precisely what anyone's chances of success are, given that they do this or that in training. But I would still ask. His answers would tell me all I neede to know about what he thought was important.
Personally, given that he has a top 10 finish in the Olympics, he should throw caution to the wind. Start doing 50k runs at 6 minute pace. Race more. Drink more strawberry smoothies. Whatever it takes, even if what it takes carries the probable result of ignoble failure.
nutz
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/12/2012 9:01PM - in reply to fcsstnbdsz Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
fcsstnbdsz wrote:

dathan is not a marathoner. He needs to get his butt to the track and bust a sub 27pronto


Exactly, Why doesn't anyone realize this? I think the best thing that has happened to him is coming in 4th at trials in the Marathon.

He can take all of that Marathon training to the bank now.

You can not compare him to Kenny Moore. Moore was a strength runner similar to Brian Sell.
kanny
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/12/2012 9:27PM - in reply to nutz Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
According to the IAAF scoring tables, a 12:56 doesn't even equal a sub 27.

I remember everyone raving about Ritz's 20 miles @ 4:51 pace. Makau stated that every week he does a long run at around 4:49 pace from 18 to 24 miles at altitude. Is that what it takes to be the best in the marathon nowadays? Do we even have a shot?

nutz wrote:

fcsstnbdsz wrote:

dathan is not a marathoner. He needs to get his butt to the track and bust a sub 27pronto

----

Exactly, Why doesn't anyone realize this? I think the best thing that has happened to him is coming in 4th at trials in the Marathon.

He can take all of that Marathon training to the bank now.

You can not compare him to Kenny Moore. Moore was a strength runner similar to Brian Sell.
bill sm
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/12/2012 9:48PM - in reply to Conto Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Conto wrote:



Horribly guided career by delusional advisers thinking he can run 2:05 or 2:06, largely, I would guess, because Hall did it and he thinks he's better then Hall. The thing is, even if he could run 2:05, he would STILL be more competitive at the 5k or 10k at the world stage. Maybe not in 2009, but in 2012 surely.



I doubt he would be competitive at the world stage in anything. If he was going to do it, he would have already done it. Talent doesn't just pop up one day after years of hard training. It shows itself early in the game. that's why alot of Boston marathon winners are in their early 20s.
bill sm
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/12/2012 9:51PM - in reply to Dlwo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Dlwo wrote:

Plus, Ritz was at a different stage in his career, already being an Olympian in the Marathon, placing 9th at the Olympics, beating Ryan Hall.

.


Big whoop de doo. I bet all the other olympians gauged their olympic efforts by who they beat. There's only one result that counts and that's winning gold baby. 10th place might as well be last.
asdsafds@afdsads.com
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/12/2012 11:34PM - in reply to kanny Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Those workouts are pretty much lies. Ritz can't run 20 miles at 4:51 pace in a race so how is he doing it during a workout. Do you really think anyone does 4:49 for 24 miles in practice at altitude? That would be like doing a 2:09 training run (assume a slower 2 mile cool down at the end) at altitude on a regular basis. I doubt it. I also doubt that Syndey Maree ran 45 mins for 10 miles 2x a week when he was training for the mile.

People think Ritz will could break 27 since it looks more like a 10k guy than a 5k guy. You wills score higher in those tables when you run your "Best" event. A 12:56 guy running somewhere between 26:50 and 27:20 wouldn't shock anyone.


kanny wrote:

According to the IAAF scoring tables, a 12:56 doesn't even equal a sub 27.

I remember everyone raving about Ritz's 20 miles @ 4:51 pace. Makau stated that every week he does a long run at around 4:49 pace from 18 to 24 miles at altitude. Is that what it takes to be the best in the marathon nowadays? Do we even have a shot?

[quote]nutz wrote:

fcsstnbdsz wrote:

dathan is not a marathoner. He needs to get his butt to the track and bust a sub 27pronto

----

Exactly, Why doesn't anyone realize this? I think the best thing that has happened to him is coming in 4th at trials in the Marathon.

He can take all of that Marathon training to the bank now.

You can not compare him to Kenny Moore. Moore was a strength runner similar to Brian Sell.
[/quote]
McFlounder
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 12:23AM - in reply to Conto Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Advisers have mislead him - WTF? Ritz is a dumb ass who can't make a good decision to save his fvcking life. Ritz chose to leave Wetmore - one of the best college coaches in the country. Who did he leave Wetmore for?

Einstein screwed himself over again by playing soccer with the dog.

Then we have the indoor track workout ...

Then the 28 mile run that screwed him up ... he left "it" in the workout.

He blazes a time in the 5k, but thinks he is a marathoner where amongst the best in the world he is simply mediocre.

Ritz is an adult who has repeatedly made foolish decisions - he has always "known" what is best for him and repeatedly made the wrong choice. He should do a George Costanza ... and do the opposite of what he thinks is right.

Just because you are fast, doesn't mean that you are smart.


Conto wrote:

Sagarin,

I forgot about the form change! So you have:

1) Trying to adjust his form... AFTER 12:56/60:00
2) Doing hard/long track workout, in spikes, 1st workout, indoors
3) Cutting holes and duct taping shoes together (have to always mention when I write this... WHILE EMPLOYED BY NIKE WHO WILL MAKE HIM CUSTOM SHOES AND HAVE THE BEST SHOE TECHNOLOGISTS/PODIATRISTS IN THE WORLD AT THEIR DISPOSAL!)

Clearly going to the marathon was due to financial reasons. I love Mary Witenberg and the NYRR, but offering Ritz a lot of money to run NYC destroyed years of track development, likely more American Records, and possibly international medals in cross and track. Not that they would know it would. They would have had no clue. But hindsight is 20/20.

What is weird with Ritz is he's a 2:09 guy at best, and he has huge belief in himself in the marathon while he is a 12:56 guy and has little belief in himself in the 5k/10k.

Say WHAT? If I ran 12:56 in 2009, I would find it hard to believe I wouldn't be a gold/silver/bronze medal contender in the 5k or 10k in 3 years.

Ritz has repeatedly said (for the last 4 years when he was with Hudson) that "all the tests" and his other PRs point to 2:05 potential.

3 years ago that meant something. Now it doesn't mean much.

Unless the "tests" have been redone to point to 2:03-2:04 potential (sarcasm), his stated 2:05 potential isn't going to get him very far at the international level.

Gotta give him credit for looking out for his family on the monetary front, beating his head against the wall, wasting his best track years trying to earn a buck.

BUT, I would have to think that had he stuck to the track and realized his full potential there, that he would have been worth more, to more marathons, then had he gone when he did.

Ritz is my favorite runner. Ever since I saw him fall at Mt Sac when he was a freshman... fall behind the field by 20 meters, and sprint to catch up (he faded late), I have admired his guts.

I just wish he made better athletic and business decisions.

That's why I have to assume his advisers have mislead him.
McFlounder
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 12:25AM - in reply to kanny Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
kanny
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 12:34AM - in reply to asdsafds@afdsads.com Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I mean the guy ran 2:03:38... Also, Ritz was at 4:53 pace at 20 miles at the trials (despite cramping up at mile 18).

asdsafds@afdsads.com wrote:

Ritz can't run 20 miles at 4:51 pace in a race so how is he doing it during a workout. Do you really think anyone does 4:49 for 24 miles in practice at altitude? That would be like doing a 2:09 training run (assume a slower 2 mile cool down at the end) at altitude on a regular basis. I doubt it.
Graeme McDowell
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 1:45AM - in reply to kanny Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Bottom line is he needs the A standards and he is running out of time. He did not look good running 28:21, closing in 66. I still think he will get the 10k standard but sub 13:20 in the 5k seems unlikely at this point. We'll see how he looks at Mt Sac next week....13:30 or so is what I expect. Trials will be a crap shoot, Rupp wins then Teg, Curtis and Ritz fight it out. Nelson has the A but I saw him listed as Wisconson TC or something?? Has he left Jerry's group?
U.N.O.
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 3:10AM - in reply to Graeme McDowell Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What´s the problem running a spring marathon? Remember that was exactly what he did before the summer of 5k AR. It HELPED his 5k fitness also, afterwards.
where?
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 4:53AM - in reply to kanny Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
kanny wrote:

According to the IAAF scoring tables, a 12:56 doesn't even equal a sub 27.

I remember everyone raving about Ritz's 20 miles @ 4:51 pace. Makau stated that every week he does a long run at around 4:49 pace from 18 to 24 miles at altitude. Is that what it takes to be the best in the marathon nowadays? Do we even have a shot?



Where did Makau state that?

Link?
Conto
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 8:10AM - in reply to bill sm Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Are you trolling? How would you doubt he would be competitive at the world stage in anything? Do you forget:

6th place 2009 WC... that is competitive... 7 seconds out of 4th, and 15 seconds ahead of 8th (who was Rupp)

3rd place 2009 Zurich... 12:56, 5th fastest 5k'er in the world in 2009. 1.24 seconds out of being the 2nd fastest 5ker in the world in 2009. that is competitive.

3rd place in 2009 World Half Marathon Championships... the is competitive. (btw, he beat in that race Kiprotich Wilson Kipsang, who has run 58:59 and 2:03:42) as well as a number of other 59/2:05 guys...

Is your definition of competitive only those who win? Mine is anyone who can hang tough with the top 3-6 for the majority of the races they enter. Ritz can hang tough with the top 3-6, in any 5k, 10k, and 1/2 field when he is in shape for those events. Maybe he ends up 3rd... maybe he ends up 6th, 7th, or 8th... but he is absolutely, 100% competitive in each one.
Conto
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 8:23AM - in reply to Graeme McDowell Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
A standard for the Olympics or for the trials?

He still has Mt Sac, Pre and the Adidas Grand Prix if he needs them. Plus Nationals and any races after Nationals between then and the Olympics.

I could see Ritz getting down to 13:15/27:30 shape by the time the trials come around. Not sure if that will be good enough.

If it is, assuming no injuries, I could see him in 13:00/27:00 shape by the time the Olympics get here.

Really, though, Jan-Jun should be plenty of time to get ready for the trials.

Teg doesn't look all that good right now, but Curtis and Nelson will be tough and Rupp is unbeatable. Derrick could be up there as well if he runs the 10k... which is probably his best bet.

Then in the 5k, Lagat and Rupp leave 1 spot. Solinsky, Teg, Jager, Derrick again and Ritz fighting for that last spot.

Ritz could very easily be left off the team.

The 1 key thing Ritz has going for him is that he is incredibly tough. I think he is tougher then all the above mentioned guys (save Lagat).

I think he'll find a way to sneak on a team, and will likely be our 1 or 2 in that event by the time the olympics are here.
Graeme McDowell
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 2:39PM - in reply to Conto Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Jan - June should be enough time but it is the middle of April right now.

Sadly he could be the first person to be 4th at the trials in the Marathon, 5k and 10k.

I didn't think he looked good at Stanford last week. It took way too much effort to run 28:21 and a last lap in 66 was all he had. Mt Sac will tell us more and then the Payton Jordan meet will tell us where he is really at.
kanny
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 3:02PM - in reply to where? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What I didn't realize was that this interview was in 12/2010 a few months after his 2:05 in rainy Berlin when his PR was only 2:04:48.

http://www.takethemagicstep.com/coaching/athletes/interviews/patrick-makau-talks-about-how-to-break-the-world-record/

where? wrote:

Where did Makau state that?

Link?
international traveller
RE: Does Dathan Need 30 Mile Long Runs? 4/13/2012 3:07PM - in reply to Conto Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Conto wrote:
WHILE EMPLOYED BY NIKE WHO WILL MAKE HIM CUSTOM SHOES AND HAVE THE BEST SHOE TECHNOLOGISTS/PODIATRISTS IN THE WORLD AT THEIR DISPOSAL!)


Nike does not have Hitoshi Mimura.
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