Ovett breaking the 1500m world record. Similar pack to the Chinese women's race going through the first 300m.
This is exactly what I was saying in the other thread.
If they started 30-40m in front of the real start line, they can hit 42s at the finish line without much exertion.
Then a 2:07 800 followed by a 61 last lap.
The track can be legit. The record was ratified.
400m track. Electronic timing.
I don't know how they verify the start or there is just an honor code there.
No complete coverage of any of the 4 world records set at that meet.
The fact that Wang set or surpassed the world record 4 times in one week is what makes you have to really look at this meet.
The splits given for the 10,000 were insane, final 3,000m under the 3,000m WR.
Then the 3,000 record is officially broken in a PRELIM.
FIVE women breaking the 3,000 WR in the final, knocking 16s off the old WR.
May have started 100m ahead of real start line.
The theory of them starting ahead of the real start line in all of these races explains many things:
Shorter distance = fast times
Track can be a legit certified 400m
Men's events could have normal times if they started at the right line
41/42 s opening 300 of the 1500 WR as evidenced by the video
Nice work here. I could understand if somebody wants to politely disagree and say that in fact, these records are legit, if they provide some evidence.
But, to simply dismiss the 'wrong-start-line' theory out of hand would be wrongheaded. Only somebody who subscribes to an ideology that states "if I read it in T&F News, if must be legit" could not see that there is at least cause for suspicion.
I'm curious as to why nobody can find a full video of the race. It would make sense for only highlights to be digitized and posted on the web, but I wonder if VHS tapes of this race exist.
Anyway, kudos to Toro and also the OP. For these women to open up with a 42 is just not plausible. It's really a shame that women competing honestly have to contend with a WR set under such strange circumstances.
The opening lap was 57.2, not 53. The splits are in the vid description.
I just posted this on the "women sub-4 mile" discussion, but these are all the vids I can find of the Chinese performances.
Qu's 1500 WR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOSbU4N-AE
Wang's 10k WR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCO3f0paE8
Wang's stuttgart 10k - with a crazy 2:43 closing 10k:
Stuttgart 1500m with a ridiculous 1:57 closing 800. Most dominant w1500 in history?
Stuttgart 3k - 1:59 closing 800. Again, its not about the times they run but the way in which they run them.
Barcelona 1992 w1500: Qu's first race at senior level outside China. Won bronze and set a then-WJR. Still the youngest medalist in the event.
Qu Yunxia interview (2parts) Intersperced with footage of WR performance
|read the description!|
To quote many a youtube video uploader - READ THE DESCRIPTION!
11th September 1993
1. Qu Yunxia: 3:50.46 WR
2. Wang Junxia: 3:51.92 (also under old WR)
3. Zhang Linli 3:57.46
Final lap: 60.3 (equivilent to a 4:07 mile)
1500m: 3:50.46 WR
3000m 8:12.19 (second on all-time list)
They obviously died pretty hard in the second half of the but still managed to set a WR. a 57 opener followed by a 64 is a pretty big discrepency.
They were hurting at the end that's for sure. I wonder if the girls at the back even finished after that suicidal opener.
Its interesting that Qu and Wang finished so far ahead of the rest. A 3:50 followed by a 3:51, then a huge gap to 3:57 and then another gap to what looks like a cavalcade of 3:59-4:02 (or thereabouts) performances.
The results look pretty meagre compared to the 1997 race - Qu and Wang apart. That suicidal opening lap is the reason why.
This is the shanghai race f0r comparison.
1. Jiang Bo 3:50.98
2. Lang Yinglai 3:51.31 WJR
3. Yin Lili 3:53.91
4. Lan Lixin 3:53.97
5. Zhang Ling 3:54.52 WYB
6. Dong Yanmei 3:55.07
7 Liu Jing 3:57.77
8. Qu Yunxia 3:57.83
9. Liu Dong 3:58.18
10 Wang Qinfeng 4:02.22
11. Yan Wei 4:04.27
That is a terribly inefficient way to maximize a performance.
And it's that first (short) lap that stands out.
Wouldn't this make more sense:
5 second slower first lap. Still with a big kick and would have been a reasonable 3:55.
So freaking ridiculous. Anyone who doesn't think there was systemic cheating at both Beijing and Shanghai, '93 and '97, needs to have their head examined. And no, I'm not just talking about drugs-- I'm talking about starting from the wrong line, manipulating the timing devices, or adding an extra inside lane to the track. I don't think there's a drug anywhere in the world that can produce nine sub-3:59s in one race. Just for context, last year's world leader was Uceny at 4:00.06.
The video that started this thread pops up every six months or so on LetsRun. To me, the key thing it demonstrates is that a) obviously the championships were recorded and televised and b) complete recordings of the races have never been made available. I wonder why on earth that could be?
Thanks for posting the links. Liu Dong who set the pace in that 1500m ran 1:56 at the end of the 1993 Stuttgart World Championships 1500m, running away with the race, the same that Qu did in the 3000m and Wang in the 10. So yes, she could run 57.2 at the start, especially since she was only pacing the race. She wanted to run and break the record but Ma wouldn't let her because of some stupid rule about dating. She was PO'd of course, ran the killer pace from the start then dropped out as forced to do by the coach.
Wang invariably ran the 2nd half of her races FASTER, so any supposedly short start would not have given any advantage, ridiculous as the notion is anyway. All her 400m splits were posted in T&FN and elsewhere at the time.
The same in the 3000m, the 2nd half was FASTER than the start. The only race this didn't happen was the 1500m thanks to Liu Dong, which led them below the WR anyway. To bad she wasn't allowed to compete with the rest of them. Look closely at that Stuttgart 1500m, she is running AWAY from 3:56 1500m runners. There is no doubt she would also have run 3:50-51 had she been allowed to compete in that race.
An intersting IAAF news report of the 1997 races.
Apparently Jiang Bo was to act merely as pacer with Qu very much the favourite, but was tripped (and yet still managed to run a 3:57!)
I wonder what the WR would be if Qu wasn't tripped - 3:48?
Notice in the Stuttgart 1500m how the 3 Chinese are RUNNING AWAY from O'Sullivan, their stride rates and power much faster! They make her look like a hack.
You really think they couldn't really RUN THAT MUCH FASTER???
Of course they did. Watch the video. Open your eyes.
|importance of coaching|
Looking at the results, Ma Junren certainly seems to be the greatest coach ever in women's distance running. Does anyone know anything about the training methodologies he used? Did he ever coach any Chinese male distance runners?
Huh? I see one woman pulling away from O'Sullivan off a slow pace to win in 4:00. I see another Chinese woman, supposedly a 3:51 1500-meter runner, fading to 4th. I see a final Chinese woman, supposedly a 3:57 runner, out of the top ten in 4:10+.
If anything, this video further proves how ridiculous (and obviously fixed) the '93 Beijing performances were.
I'd just like to point out at the very least that it would have been virtually impossible for the actual TRACK to have been short.
1- The Men's times do NOT correlate with there being a short track. In fact, if the track WAS short, then their respective times would fail to align with any of their other performances that year.
2- The exact same track and stadium was used for the 11th Edition of the All-Asian games. If the track WAS short, don't you think that quite a few other countries would be calling foul at that time?
Whether it was drugs, timing, starts, etc. I have no idea, but I DO know that the actual track was not to blame.
In the world record 1500m race they go through the first 300m in 41 seconds, which is 54 second 400m pace. The first lap split is recorded as 57. That means they went from running 54 second pace for the first 300m and then to 64 second pace around the bend to complete the first lap. They did not appear to be slowing much at all. 41 seconds through 300m would be right on, or a tad fast, for 800m world record pace. It would be like the men going through 300m in a 1500m at world 800m record pace, 36 seconds! It is not humanly possible to run the first 300m of a 1500m race at 800m world record pace and go on to destroy the 1500m world record.
You should take a look at DANIEL KOMEN'S 3000m and 2-mile record and say that.
Even the announcers were calling his pace absolutely suicidal.
You should take a look at DANIEL KOMEN'S 3000m and 2-mile record and say that.
Even the announcers were calling his pace absolutely suicidal.[/quote]
Sure Komen went out quick, but in fairness to what that poster said that would have been like Komen going out in 1:50 for the 800.
Liu Dong ---- LIU DONG
You can't spell Chinese names??? Or just being a prejudiced ass.
Liu Dong ran the last 700 meters in 1:40.93, a 1:55.4 pace for 800 meters. No wonder she pulled away from "the Irish runner" by 3 FULL SECONDS -- in a tactical race btw. Tactical races are usually CLOSE. This was a runaway. Her Asian Record 800m is only 1:55.54, still standing today. She only ran 3:56.31 for 1500m, only aiming for winning, but was surely capable of 3:51!!
You must be making up the other Chinese times, as none of them had run 3:51 by Stuttgart in 1993. Any of Liu Dong, Qu Yunxia, Wang Junxia, Jiang Bo would have run away from O'Sullivan in their prime. Check from 3:25 in the Stuttgart 1500m to see how Dong keeps running away from her. Yes, she could run a 3:51.
Here's the 3000m with Qu Yunxia, World 1500m Record holder, where the 3 Chinese women ran away from O'Sullivan. Check their stride rates, power and FORM! No comparison.