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Barakus Obama
Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 1:33PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I mean...he was in front when that Irish spectator attacked him.

But Baldini was closing the gap.

About Meb...i don't know.

“The attack was a surprise for me. I couldn’t defend myself because I was concentrating on my race. I don’t know what would have happened if the Greek man who helped me so quickly (Polyvios Kossivas) hadn’t reacted the way he did. I give him a lot of credit for his courage.”

“Perhaps things could have been different, because I started to have problems after that, I couldn't concentrate. It was very difficult for me to finish. With my sense of Olympic spirit I showed my determination and won a medal”.

Ipersonally think that Vanderlei was, at that point, a little better than Meb. Not counting only PB'S...

Top 10 performances in Marathon
2:08:31 2 Tokyo 08.02.98
2:08:34 3 Rotterdam 16.04.00
2:08:38 1 Tokyo 12.02.96
2:08:40 3 Fukuoka 05.12.99
2:09:39 1 Hamburg 18.04.04
2:10:02 2 Oita 04.02.01
2:10:38 12 Fukuoka 07.12.03
2:10:42 5 New York, NY 01.11.98
2:11:06 1 Reims 23.10.94
2:11:19 1 São Paulo 14.07.02
runn
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 3:05PM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I remember that he picked up the pace right after the attack. Now, you could say that it didn't hurt him, he picked up the pace and then was caught by Baldini.
BUT, you could also say that the attack caused a rush of adrenalin that caused him to pick up the pace and then he dies as a result of that untimely move.
J.R.
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 3:15PM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
There is no question in my mind that Vanderlei de Lima would have won the Olympic marathon had that idiot not knocked him down.
Citizen Runner
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 3:22PM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
My recollection is that the concensus was de Lima was fading and probably would have been caught by Meb anyway. Not certain, but I thought de Lima said so himself at that time. Maybe he was just being gracious.

For what it's worth Meb beat quite a few guys who looked better on paper that day.
lip kitten
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 4:21PM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
There is no question in my mind that he would have finished in the same place whether tackled or not.
Avocado's Number
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 4:40PM - in reply to J.R. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

J.R. wrote:

There is no question in my mind that Vanderlei de Lima would have won the Olympic marathon had that idiot not knocked him down.


No question? Really?

I was tracking the time gap during the race, and was pretty confident that he was going to get caught. And, once caught, I doubt that he would have been successful in fighting off Baldini, who was very strong. But it was still a horrible thing that happened, ruining an exciting race, tarnishing Baldini's victory, and perhaps altering the placings.
Barakus Obama
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 4:44PM - in reply to Avocado's Number Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Any detailed splits info?
Avocado's Number
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 4:53PM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Barakus Obama wrote:

Any detailed splits info?


Here's one fairly detailed account of the race:

http://www.marathonguide.com/news/exclusives/Olympics2004/MensOlympicsMarathonRace.cfm
Barakus Obama
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 5:14PM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Seeing the splits...It's very close...maybe the silver medalist could have been decided in the stadium lap.
codger
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 6:13PM - in reply to J.R. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Boy, you people have short memories.
Right afterwards de Lima was complaining that he would won gold without the assault.
To placate him the IOC gave him a special medal of courage......don't you all remember that?
I do run run run
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 7:40PM - in reply to codger Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Yea no kidding, short memories indeed.
First of all, I think its actually rather disrespectful to spout conjecture that De Lima wasn't that affected by the attack and would have been beaten anyway.
Watch the tape again, the guy gets slammed right into his side, and is forced off the road. He was put under duress in every physical, emotional, and psychological way in that incident. How can you possibly say "oh it didn't affect much, he would have been caught anyway".
De Lima was running a brilliant race, and nobody in this forum knows of the kind of emotional high comes from knowing you are that close to winning the Olympic Marathon, especially one as particularly momentous as Athens. Nobody can say "oh he was laboring, Baldini was too strong".
Sorry, I simply find this whole discussion insulting to what happened to De Lima.
There is never any way of knowing, maybe he would have fell later on before he finished, maybe he would have completely died, and maybe he would have gotten such a high to keep him going that last few miles and take olympic gold. It isn't putting Baldini or Meb's performance down at all to say that De Lima was having his best day and was headed for the win, so just leave this topic alone.
Avocado's Number
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 8:39PM - in reply to I do run run run Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

I do run run run wrote:
It isn't putting Baldini or Meb's performance down at all to say that De Lima was having his best day and was headed for the win, so just leave this topic alone.


I suppose people can differ about what it means to "put down" someone's performance, but saying that de Lima was "headed for the win" suggests, to me, that Baldini wasn't. And I just don't think that's true.

I do belive that de Lima lost time, and perhaps place, as a result of the attack. Particularly under those circumstances -- over 21 miles into the most important race of his life, with challenging weather and course conditions, and with a world-class field giving chase -- it's hard to believe that he wasn't significantly affected, and I thought that it was remarkable that he was able to gather his senses and deal with the attack as well as he did.
thepinkmonkey
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 8:48PM - in reply to I do run run run Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

I do run run run wrote:

Yea no kidding, short memories indeed.
First of all, I think its actually rather disrespectful to spout conjecture that De Lima wasn't that affected by the attack and would have been beaten anyway.
Watch the tape again, the guy gets slammed right into his side, and is forced off the road. He was put under duress in every physical, emotional, and psychological way in that incident. How can you possibly say "oh it didn't affect much, he would have been caught anyway".
De Lima was running a brilliant race, and nobody in this forum knows of the kind of emotional high comes from knowing you are that close to winning the Olympic Marathon, especially one as particularly momentous as Athens. Nobody can say "oh he was laboring, Baldini was too strong".
Sorry, I simply find this whole discussion insulting to what happened to De Lima.
There is never any way of knowing, maybe he would have fell later on before he finished, maybe he would have completely died, and maybe he would have gotten such a high to keep him going that last few miles and take olympic gold. It isn't putting Baldini or Meb's performance down at all to say that De Lima was having his best day and was headed for the win, so just leave this topic alone.




This is the answer.
no suggestion necessary
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 8:52PM - in reply to Avocado's Number Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Avocado's Number wrote:

saying that de Lima was "headed for the win" suggests, to me, that Baldini wasn't.


Baldini was almost 2 minutes back and headed for 2nd place at that point.
Barakus Obama
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 8:57PM - in reply to Barakus Obama Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
A simple push could affect so many distance athletes.

Ask Solinsky in Eurocircuit. He wasn't capable to comeback to the track and "the push" was so little seeing it on TV.
Avocado's Number
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 9:40PM - in reply to no suggestion necessary Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

no suggestion necessary wrote:

Baldini was almost 2 minutes back and headed for 2nd place at that point.


No, he wasn't. He was less than forty seconds back. Having given de Lima a sizeable lead, Baldini, Meb, and one or two others from the chase pack were just starting to crank up the pace to go after him. Looking at the runners' respective speeds just prior to the attack, as well as the rate of change in the runners' respective speeds, it seemed unlikely that de Lima would hold them all off. And it was pretty clear in the ensuing miles that Baldini was much stronger than anyone else out there.

It was an unfortunate incident for both de Lima, who was left to wonder what might have been, and Baldini, who was deprived of an untarnished victory.
J.R.
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 11:21PM - in reply to Avocado's Number Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Avocado's Number wrote:

it seemed unlikely that de Lima would hold them all off.


Huh? They only passed de Lima in the last couple of miles.

Of course Vanderlei would have won. No question about it.

Regarding the splits, my recollection is that de Lima took the lead around 1/2 way, and continued to gradually pull AWAY from the field, until he was knocked down by the idiot. So he was pulling AWAY from Bandini and Meb. Besides that he was on cruise mode, with quite a substandial lead, running in to victory on his own. If you have mile by mile splits to the contrary then feel free to post them.
Avocado's Number
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 11:37PM - in reply to Avocado's Number Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I just watched the videotape of the portion of the race during which de Lima was attacked. Baldini (with Tergat and Meb in tow) was only 28 seconds (not 38 seconds as reported elsewhere) behind de Lima at the 35k mark (de Lima in 1:50:08, Baldini and Tergat in 1:50:36, Meb in 1:50:37). De Lima's lead was shrinking dramatically. De Lima was attacked shortly before the 36k mark. Baldini covered the last 7.2k in 20:19, which is absurdly fast, although there was a net elevation loss of about 450 feet over the last 10k.
Doctor
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/16/2012 11:45PM - in reply to Avocado's Number Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Several of Baldini's training partners were caught cheating. But that type of associative guilt is only good on dark-skinned runners.
Barakus Obama
RE: Was Vanderlei Cordeiro de Lima better than Meb in 04' Athens Olympic Games? 2/17/2012 8:39AM - in reply to Doctor Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What Italian runners? Di Cecco?
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